Uronema: triggered by toxin?

[Tcook]

I’m not sure what happened but here are the events. @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Tank: 120 mixed reef running for 2.5 years. Parameters stable through event: ph 8.2, alk 9, Ca 430, Mg 1410, Po4 0.05, No3 5. Ammonia not measured. 1.026. Trident and Salifert testing.

Fish: bimac, lyretail x 5, bellus , watanabi , banghai, tomini , vivien, pink streak with me 2 years and normal day before event. CBB in DT 6 weeks and before that at lfs in 0.5 copper 2 months. Chrysus in DT 4 weeks and before that in observation 3 months.

T maxima from Pacific East added last week.

Event: Sunday I noticed bimac , Male lyretail and 2 females hovering mid water colum with long stringy poop. Not interested in eating. Dosed 1 oz Prazipro with plenty of aeration. That evening bimac perched in rocks 90-100 bpm. All lyretail disappeared. Immediately added carbon and turned UV back on. Next day bimac dead. CBB hovering with tattered pectoral fins. Rimini with wide open mouth 90-100 bpm swimming well. Making water. Following morning CBB dead. Only male lyrtail left perched in rock. Other fish swimming and eating. Did 50 gallon water change last night.

4 days prior master bedroom painted. Tank is in wall in office. Fish closet door 10 feet from master door. Day before cement mud applied to master bathroom for tiling.

notice the red brown mark on the CBB? Is this Uronema? No other marks to suggest velvet?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’m not sure what happened but here are the events. @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Tank: 120 mixed reef running for 2.5 years. Parameters stable through event: ph 8.2, alk 9, Ca 430, Mg 1410, Po4 0.05, No3 5. Ammonia not measured. 1.026. Trident and Salifert testing.

Fish: bimac, lyretail x 5, bellus , watanabi , banghai, tomini , vivien, pink streak with me 2 years and normal day before event. CBB in DT 6 weeks and before that at lfs in 0.5 copper 2 months. Chrysus in DT 4 weeks and before that in observation 3 months.

T maxima from Pacific East added last week.

Event: Sunday I noticed bimac , Male lyretail and 2 females hovering mid water colum with long stringy poop. Not interested in eating. Dosed 1 oz Prazipro with plenty of aeration. That evening bimac perched in rocks 90-100 bpm. All lyretail disappeared. Immediately added carbon and turned UV back on. Next day bimac dead. CBB hovering with tattered pectoral fins. Rimini with wide open mouth 90-100 bpm swimming well. Making water. Following morning CBB dead. Only male lyrtail left perched in rock. Other fish swimming and eating. Did 50 gallon water change last night.

4 days prior master bedroom painted. Tank is in wall in office. Fish closet door 10 feet from master door. Day before cement mud applied to master bathroom for tiling.

notice the red brown mark on the CBB? Is this Uronema? No other marks to suggest velvet?

Not seeing uronema which is often rash like and oval shaped not to say it isnt present but I do see signs of aggression with anthias and butterfly's tail and fins which questions if other fish in the tank played a role..
The mouths on both closed disqualifies and oxygen issue but the bruising on bodies may be an internal issue going on especially with not eating and mentioned white feces.

 

[Tcook]

Definitely a mystery. The tattered fins only occurred 12-24 hours after they appeared ill. Strangely a year ago I had all 5 lyretails hide in the rocks for a week after a cleaning spray was used down the hall. At the end of the week they came out like nothing happened.

what do you think of this area on the CBB? Not the classic vertical marks of Uronema but maybe? @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That doesn't look like classic Uronema to me. Internal Uronema almost always causes problems in newly acquired fish. I've never seen it in long term captives like this.

Painting and plaster will not likely cause problems as long as the products were all latex or water-based. Solvent based products can get into the air and cause toxicity issues though.

Velvet will cause massive fish loss very rapidly, with no other signs other than rapid breathing, lethargy and hanging in water current. However, it also will kill all of the fish in a tank with a couple of exceptions. The stringy feces can point towards internal issues.

It wasn't clear to me - what fish survived and do they seem stable now?

Jay

 

[Tcook]

That doesn't look like classic Uronema to me. Internal Uronema almost always causes problems in newly acquired fish. I've never seen it in long term captives like this.

Painting and plaster will not likely cause problems as long as the products were all latex or water-based. Solvent based products can get into the air and cause toxicity issues though.

Velvet will cause massive fish loss very rapidly, with no other signs other than rapid breathing, lethargy and hanging in water current. However, it also will kill all of the fish in a tank with a couple of exceptions. The stringy feces can point towards internal issues.

It wasn't clear to me - what fish survived and do they seem stable now?

Jay

Pink streak, chrysus, vivien, banghai, watanabe, bellus all are stable. Tomini is swimming fine and eating but seems a bit more skittish. Male lyretail still wedged in rocks breathing somewhat rapid. No corals or inverts affected so probably not a toxin. Not sure how velvet came in unless on maxima or leptosirus frag that was dipped.

Edit: Tang looks fine with respiration 50 bpm. All other fish normal. Male lyretail with 5 cm stringy poop. Respiration of 100.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Pink streak, chrysus, vivien, banghai, watanabe, bellus all are stable. Tomini is swimming fine and eating but seems a bit more skittish. Male lyretail still wedged in rocks breathing somewhat rapid. No corals or inverts affected so probably not a toxin. Not sure how velvet came in unless on maxima or leptosirus frag that was dipped.

Edit: Tang looks fine with respiration 50 bpm. All other fish normal. Male lyretail with 5 cm stringy poop. Respiration of 100.

Sorry, the cause of this isn't clear to me. The anthias may have an internal infection (protozoans).

Jay

 

[Tcook]

Sorry, the cause of this isn't clear to me. The anthias may have an internal infection (protozoans).

Jay

Yes it’s strange how they did well for 2 years then this. I just hope that this isn’t a lull before another disaster due to large water change and UV back on. I’ll update this thread if anything changes.

 

[Tcook]

@Jay Hemdal So here it is almost a week since my last post. Casualties are 5 lyretails, 1 bimac, and the CBB. Bellus, watanabe, banghai, vivien, chrysus, pink streak and clowns had no issue. Tomini came out today like nothing happened.
Tank improved with large bag of carbon and water change. I’m leaning towards toxin. My wife used a spray-on paint stripper in the master bath but i am not sure of the timing. Not happy about losing the anthias but i may have dodged a bullet for now.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Generally, acute toxins in water will kill all of a group of animals - like all of the fish, all of the corals, etc. Certainly some species are more susceptible to toxins than other species, but it is unusual for that difference to be so great as to create a distinct line like this. Still, a disease diagnosis, like I explained, is equally as unlikely since it would have spread to all of the fish.

Jay

 

[Tcook]

Generally, acute toxins in water will kill all of a group of animals - like all of the fish, all of the corals, etc. Certainly some species are more susceptible to toxins than other species, but it is unusual for that difference to be so great as to create a distinct line like this. Still, a disease diagnosis, like I explained, is equally as unlikely since it would have spread to all of the fish.

Jay

I guess this will remain a mystery with the other fish unaffected and the Tomini coming back from the ashes.

 

[Tcook]

Well the Tomini started to breath fast yesterday. I thought it may have been bullied by the watanabe but maybe the angel was just taking advatage of the situation. Tomini died today. Vivien wrasse a bit sluggish and went to the sand early. Banghai in the corner but not breathing heavily. Both angels, clowns and chrysus wrasse appear normal.

Gradping here. I remembered that I dosed Prazi 2 weeks ago and didn’t do a second dose when things started going downhill. The tomini was really gasping and the oral cavity looked congedted. Could this be a resurgence of flukes? And not affecting the angels and clowns? @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well the Tomini started to breath fast yesterday. I thought it may have been bullied by the watanabe but maybe the angel was just taking advatage of the situation. Tomini died today. Vivien wrasse a bit sluggish and went to the sand early. Banghai in the corner but not breathing heavily. Both angels, clowns and chrysus wrasse appear normal.

Gradping here. I remembered that I dosed Prazi 2 weeks ago and didn’t do a second dose when things started going downhill. The tomini was really gasping and the oral cavity looked congedted. Could this be a resurgence of flukes? And not affecting the angels and clowns? @Jay Hemdal

While it could be a resurgence of flukes, I think that would be unlikely to kill the fish so quickly, figuring that any new flukes would be small. Maybe though?
Jay

 

[Tcook]

While it could be a resurgence of flukes, I think that would be unlikely to kill the fish so quickly, figuring that any new flukes would be small. Maybe though?
Jay

While it could be a resurgence of flukes, I think that would be unlikely to kill the fish so quickly, figuring that any new flukes would be small. Maybe though?
Jay

I’m going to pull the carbon and do the proper 2 doses of prazi. This just doesn’t fit the classic signs of velvet. I just don’t know what can be taking down individual fish or select species so quickly.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Correct - I just don’t see velvet not killing all fish quickly, only flukes have this sort of host specificity.
Jay

 

[Tcook]

48 hours after the dose of prazi the banghai is 100% back to normal. Angels, chrysus, clowns remain unaffected. Vivien has been in the sand bed for almost a week. Two maxima didn’t seem to like the treatment much. Plan to do second treatment tomorrow.

 

[vetteguy53081]

48 hours after the dose of prazi the banghai is 100% back to normal. Angels, chrysus, clowns remain unaffected. Vivien has been in the sand bed for almost a week. Two maxima didn’t seem to like the treatment much. Plan to do second treatment tomorrow.

Not sure how long you have dosed the Prazi but treatment is typically One dose that will last eight days (interval) do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval. For clam, dose at 85% next application. Its likely the glycol in the treatment upsetting it.
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite

 

[Tcook]

Not sure how long you have dosed the Prazi but treatment is typically One dose that will last eight days (interval) do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval. For clam, dose at 85% next application. Its likely the glycol in the treatment upsetting it.
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite

Thanks. The first dose I didn’t follow up with a second dose so i decided to repeat the treatment correctly. Tomorrow will be day 7. Did a large water change last night. Vivien wrasse was breathing heavily before ladt weeks dose and has been in the sand since. Also have not seen the pink streak. Hopefully prazi wasn’t too hard on them.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks. The first dose I didn’t follow up with a second dose so i decided to repeat the treatment correctly. Tomorrow will be day 7. Did a large water change last night. Vivien wrasse was breathing heavily before ladt weeks dose and has been in the sand since. Also have not seen the pink streak. Hopefully prazi wasn’t too hard on them.

Prazi reduces oxygen which is why I suggested addition of air stone- It helps