Understanding nutrient limitations

[sixty_reefer]

understanding nutrient limitations

1. Introduction
2. Brief description on the difference between Availability and residual nutrients.
3.Identify nutrient limitations under different filtration methods.
3.1. Heterotrophic bacteria as dominant species effect on nutrients and residual.
3.2. Heterotrophic bacteria and autotrophic split dominance effects on nutrient and residual.
4. Influence of other filtration methods and additives on Nutrients
4.1. Filter sock, poly filter and sponges
4.2. Roller mats
4.3. Macro algae’s
4.4. Carbon Dosing
4.5. Phosphates absorbing Medias
4.6. Phosphates artificial dosing
4.7. Nitrates dosing
4.8. Nitrogen dosing
4.9. Protein skimmer
4.10. Water changes
5. Conclusion


1. Introduction

The following article is a update and a more detailed method to understand some of the information that was posted in a previous thread named “the third Nutrient” where I wrote about the importance of the Nutrient C and a few ways to interpret limitations in Reef Aquaria, I have now realised that although the theory is correct it can’t be applied to all systems. This is due to exist two main types of biological filtration in our hobby, one that is mainly done by heterotrophic bacteria, this will be the most common system in the hobby in my opinion, the second type of biological filtration is the split autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria dominance this will be more common to folks that still have large amounts of live rock or media in a dark Refugium normally in the sump or in the back of a AIO system this kind of filtration promotes nitrifying and denitrifying autotroph to colonise part of the system and may affect the principal nutrient limitation theory.
One of the goals in this article is to aid other members into understanding how to manage nutrient limitations in aquaria.


2. Brief description on the difference between Availability and residual nutrients.

It is important in my opinion to understand the difference between availability of nutrients and residual nutrients to fully understand the information shared through this thread and for a better perception of how nutrients work.
The availability of nutrients it’s the process from the start of decomposition of organic biomass into organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus the nutrients will then be slowly release into the water column and be utilised by many different organisms that habitat our systems including coral and macro algae’s.
The most important organism at controlling nutrients will be bacteria, they are the sole responsible organisms to limit Carbon, Nitrogen and depending on each individual biological filtration Phosphorus.
The above nutrients can’t be tested with home grade test kits at present time unfortunately. What we can test is for residual nitrates and phosphates this will be the nutrients that a system is not using hence why they can increase or decrease during nutritional changes to a particular system.

The charts in the pictures below demonstrates the changes in C N P availability in comparison to the expected changes in residual nutrients during carbon dosing. The chart purpose is to illustrate the difference between availability and residual nutrients, on the first picture chart we can observe how a stable tank would look like wend stable and on the second picture chart we can observe that the increase of the availability of organic carbon would made the residual of nitrates and phosphates decrease.

Picture 1

picture 2

3. Identify nutrient limitations under different filtration methods.

3.1. Heterotrophic bacteria as dominant species effect on nutrients and residual.

How I understand the limitations in C N P Availability of nutrients in a system that is mainly biologically filtered by heterotrophic bacteria.

P limits N and C
That may cause N and C to be in abundance

N limits C
That may cause C to be in abundance

How do I understand abundance in C N P availability of nutrients, abundance means if one of the nutrients is in excess

C abundance
May cause N and P be limited


C and N abundance
May cause P to be limited

Knowing the basics of abundance and limitations we may be able to interpret the limitations and abundance of those nutrients using our residual parameters to have a vague idea of what’s happening at the C N P availability of nutrients level.


Residual of phosphates in connection to P

Phosphates decreasing
It may mean P is starting to be less available

Phosphates at zero
It may Mean that P may not be available in the aquarium

Phosphates increasing
It may Mean P is starting to build up in our aquariums

Residual of Nitrates in connection to N


Nitrates decreasing
It may mean N is starting to be less available


Nitrates at Zero
It may mean that N is not available in the aquarium


Nitrates increasing
It may mean N is starting to build up in our aquariums


3.2. Heterotrophic bacteria and autotrophic split dominance effects on nutrient and residual.

How I understand the limitations in C N P Availability of nutrients in a system that is biologically filtered by heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria.

Residual nitrates going up
It may mean that there’s not enough media supporting denitrification in the sump/display and the display could be limited by the nutrient C

Residual Nitrates going down
It may mean that there is to much media in the sump/display supporting denitrification or a abundance of the nutrient C in the display.


Residual nitrates stable
The balance is just right between display and sump

Residual phosphates going up
It may mean that most of the nutrient N is being processed by Nitrifying autotrophs in the sump or the display is limited By the nutrient N or C.

Residual phosphates going down
It may mean that there is a abundance of the nutrient N and C in the display.

Residual phosphates stable
The balance is just right between display and sump


4. Influence of other filtration methods and additives on Nutrients

4.1. Filter sock, poly filter and sponges

The above filtration can influence the availability of nutrients and residual nutrients, the way they will influence is due to the contact time with the water column the longer it takes in between changes or cleaning the more nutrients will be available to the overall system.

If a system is used to only have them clean or replaced once a week a change in husbandry like moving from weekly to daily could influence the overhaul stability of the supply of available nutrients to a particular system.

4.2. Roller mats

Rollers are definitely a impressive way to automate mechanical filtration the only disadvantage or advantage in my opinion is how effective they are at removing uneaten food from the water column before they start to break down and be able to release nutrients.

If a particular system is observed to start depleting nutrient sometimes by reducing the speed of the roller you should be able to increase the overall availability of nutrients or increase the speed to lower nutrients.

A change from a filter sock to a roller mat could be one of this situations and I would personally recommend that after the change the roller is set to the lower speed for a few weeks to let the organism in the tank adapt to the new availability of nutrients and slowly increase the speed for the previous reasons.

4.3. Macro algae’s

Macro algae’s are a good way to reduce the residual of Nitrates and Phosphates the only thing that makes them a more complex nutrient export is they’re demand in trace elements and sometimes this can become a issue for continuous growth they may also compete with coral for some of the trace elements.

4.4. Carbon Dosing

Carbon dosing in the form of pellets or the many liquid forms it’s a good way to reduce the the build up of the residual nutrients N and P

4.5. Phosphates absorbing Medias

They ideal to adjust the build up of Residual phosphates without making any large changes to the overall balance of the system

4.6. phosphates artificial dosing

It is a efficient way to increase a target nutrient in a controlled fashion.

4.7. Nitrates dosing

It is a efficient way to increase a Target Residual nutrient in a controlled fashion.

4.8. Nitrogen dosing

Nitrogen dosing it is a effective way to increase the availability of N in a system it will also be a good source of nutrients to aid the growth of bacteria population if desired.

4.9. Protein skimmer

They are a effective way to remove excess organics from the water column before they can break down into available nutrients.

4.10. Water changes

In my opinion water changes are not a effective way to control nutrients, they are efficient in emergencies and in other areas of the hobby like replenish trace elements, regarding nutrient control I believe that they are the last resource to look for.

5. Conclusion

The above information is a easier way to interpret what’s happening in a system at the nutrient level, once identified the type of filtration that a system has and the potential dominant bacteria it can becomes easier to understand what is affecting the nutrition on that individual system for a ease of response from the end user to make more informative adjustments if required, I’ve made a effort to keep everything as simple as possible so that folks can understand the methods regardless of the level of experience.

I may have missed a few things although the basics to understand Nutrition will be present in a way or another in the thread.

 

[Reefahholic]

Sounds good.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thank you @Reefahholic

 

[Pankney72]

Yeesh. Needs lots of editing and sections that have one sentence should just be omitted. Each “subsection” in this is a big topic and should have its own full article. This did not contain useful information.

this should not have gone out as a highlight in the subscription email. Mods need to catch this sort of thing before it goes out.

 

[SLOfizz]

Second this article needs a lot of work.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yeesh. Needs lots of editing and sections that have one sentence should just be omitted. Each “subsection” in this is a big topic and should have its own full article. This did not contain useful information.

you’re absolutely right, the information could be expanded to over 50 pages although The aim wasn’t writing for the 5% (made up number) that understand the subject, this is aimed to the 95% that are not aware how limitations work in closed systems.
could I ask why you find the information not useful?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Second this article needs a lot of work.

I’m always looking to ways to improve my rationale, in your view what is missing to the literature? English is not my native language and I’m wondering if I made a lot of grammar mistakes or if the issue could be the theory itself.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ok, back to the topic.

Let’s go forward with this!

 

[sixty_reefer]

Ok, back to the topic.

Let’s go forward with this!

I just thought that it would be polite to ask the point of view, the article is talking about unprecedented technique to identify the abundance of organic carbon without the need for testing, it’s talking about the limitations in heterotrophic organisms that can’t assimilate nutrients without the presence of all 3 nutrients, the article and the thread also illustrates that most aquarium have heterotrophic bacteria as a dominant species instead of autotrophic nitrifying bacteria as it’s commonly misunderstood by many in our hobby, the subject will be difficult to understand until folks realise that denitrification is not the principal method to remove nitrates in most reefs.
The article and the thread also Encouraging discussion on invasive species like Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates, if we are able to identify the nutrients that they utilise in our system and what nutrient conditions we need to avoid to encourage they’re blooms, could we remove strategic nutrients to eliminate they’re energy source and eradicate them by just manipulating nutrients?

many would agree that zero nutrients could give you Cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates, what is happening at the nutrient availability level is what is unknown and the tables described in this article gives a fairly good indication of what’s happening and remove guessing in the fighting eradicate them by utilising a more evidence based technique to eliminate a common issue in today’s reefing community.

at this point I’m just wondering if the article and the thread are just not being fully understood, it’s not a easy subject to discuss.

 

[Pankney72]

you’re absolutely right, the information could be expanded to over 50 pages although The aim wasn’t writing for the 5% (made up number) that understand the subject, this is aimed to the 95% that are not aware how limitations work in closed systems.
could I ask why you find the information not useful?

1.) The ideas in this certainly aren’t unprecedented. People have been talking about this stuff for years.

2.) The 95% need clear and thorough explanation to properly understand these topics. It’s not here. Imperfect understanding is way worse than complete ignorance.

3.) I’m sorry if this comes off as harsh but technical topics require technical writing. I’ve read everything you’ve written in this thread, and the ideas you’re trying to communicate are beyond your current writing abilities.

 

[sixty_reefer]

1.) The ideas in this certainly aren’t unprecedented. People have been talking about this stuff for years.

I understand that, although I have been kicked out of a forum for bringing this ideology forward and the last recent post I saw from that same forum was that I was in a way “butchering biology”you may understand my reservations after the feed back.
I’d like to tank R2R for letting express my thoughts and allow me to stay on the platform.

2.) The 95% need clear and thorough explanation to properly understand these topics. It’s not here. Imperfect understanding is way worse than complete ignorance.

as I explained above the subject is not fully understood in the hobby, I understand you have a background in cell biology and chemistry, would you be willing to aid the article? Maybe take the subject forward, I have discussed the basis of the article with randy extensively before writing it up, as you can see from previous threads there’s not much discussion going on, probably because the basis are not well understood. Only a few know the effects of C N P in reef aquaria.

3.) I’m sorry if this comes off as harsh but technical topics require technical writing. I’ve read everything you’ve written in this thread, and the ideas you’re trying to communicate are beyond your current writing abilities.

No need to apologise, I’m the kind of person that prefers to be told straight, and I concur with you, what would be the best way to bring the topic to light in a way that everyone could understand the literature independently of they’re level of experience in the hobby?

 

[SLOfizz]

Lacks any reference, justification, data other then referencing your own threads of self discovery. Why should anyone believe you? Where is the effort to convince me you are even correct in you opinion. Justify your findings, don’t assume the reader will just believe what you have to say, especially when you haven’t established any credibility.

This comes off as a summary of others antidotal evidence collected across the message boards.. Very few threads on message boards create knowlege due to this being a hobby for most. Tell me how getting a consensus of your findings is even right. Why are any of your statements true? How are they functioning?

Try reading an article from another valued member of the community. Randy interacts with your thread a lot. Look at how he writes and presents information. Mimic that.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Wow...you guys are coming down pretty hard on this guy...

 

[sixty_reefer]

Lacks any reference, justification, data other then referencing your own threads of self discovery. Why should anyone believe you? Where is the effort to convince me you are even correct in you opinion. Justify your findings, don’t assume the reader will just believe what you have to say, especially when you haven’t established any credibility.

basically your saying that the article is missing references?
most of the articles is based on common knowledge and it’s not hard to find supporting research.

This comes off as a summary of others antidotal evidence collected across the message boards.. Very few threads on message boards create knowlege due to this being a hobby for most. Tell me how getting a consensus of your findings is even right. Why are any of your statements true? How are they functioning?

How many threads or articles do you see out there that connect the iteration between organic nutrient and inorganic nutrients, in the article I’m offering a way to quantify the availability of organic nutrient (C N P) utilising inorganic nutrients as a reference.
Coral and other organisms in our systems will always prefer inorganic to organic nutrients the tables given is a way to interpret those availability’s this will mean that if someone where to understand the message that it could fairly easy deplete a system from inorganic nutrient that are harder for coral and other organisms to assimilate wile making sure organics are added that will be preferable to encourage faster growth.
The organic nutrient C is not utilised by coral and macro algaes although is a tool to keep inorganic phosphate and nitrates at desired levels and if the abundance of C happens many invasive organisms can start to dominate the system and by interpreting the tables correctly we can find ways to reduce C by adding forms of inorganic N and P that will starve those same invasive organisms.
The goal of the article is to put the information out there and not influence anyones decision if folks think that this would be beneficial for they’re level in the hobby automatically they would ask more questions or do they’re own research. Imo it’s far more easy to assimilate knowledge wend we are interested in the topic.

basically I can’t go forward with the article until the basic information is understood, if there isn’t a realisations that there is two types of nutrients and one type is more beneficial that the other how can we go forward.
Many times you will see a tank with all the visual parameters expected to grow coral although the availability of organic nutrients can’t be tested, a tank with a higher fish load will always have a larger import of organic nutrients than a tank with a couple fish that are hand feed, even if both tanks have the same residual in inorganic nutrients the tank with a higher fish load will alway have the best growth.

Try reading an article from another valued member of the community. Randy interacts with your thread a lot. Look at how he writes and presents information. Mimic that.

I read many if not all of Randy’s work he also doesn’t add references in his articles.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Wow...you guys are coming down pretty hard on this guy...

It’s fine, healthy discussions are always welcome, the subject is very difficult to understand as most won’t know the difference between organic and inorganic nutrients many still think that P (phosphorus) and phosphates are the same thing. It will be a challenge to change years of miss understanding the miss use of the abbreviation.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Pankney72 @SLOfizz

Pankney72 as a cell biologist you may find the following information interesting.

this is a carnations coral (dendronephtya) specimen that I acquired in a local LFS I made sure the specimen was in the worst condition possible to give my theory some substantial evidence that there is a difference between organic nutrients and inorganic nutrients as many may know this coral is virtually impossible to keep alive in our home system due to not have enough nutrients to keep them alive, once acquired they will start to lose mass and eventually die.
Other way to identify that the coral is doing well is the growth of new polyps.

this is my specimen in a 26 gallon with only 3 small fish, I only feed light and increase the organic sources of nitrogen and phosphorus using artificial nutrient.

This is the first day that I acquired the coral

2-3 days in my system

a couple weeks in my system

It can be observed that the coral is actually gaining mass this is completely unheard in our hobby, we’re a carnation coral Is gaining mass instead of losing mass as expected and all this has been achieved by manipulating the availability of organic nutrients in a small system.
This is just one of the case studies in my new system I am keeping alive many other organisms that normally would die in a conventional system.

if a healthy coral was acquired I would need at list two to three years to prove my theory, as a unhealthy coral was acquired and the signs of mass gain are shown the two to three years won’t be needed to illustrate that the coral is gaining mass and recovering well.

@SLOfizz i apologise that I didn’t added enough references to the article, unfortunately most of the relevant content is not available in studies made by others.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@Pankney72

other thing you may notice is the tissue recovery pointed out in the green circles

 

[Pankney72]

Wow...you guys are coming down pretty hard on this guy...

It wasn’t my intention when I started… and yet here I am… answering his specific questions about my points as gently and truthfully as I can.

Initially I mostly wanted to call Mod attention to an article that wasn’t ready for the group email. I haven’t abandoned though. I’ve just been at work.

 

[Pankney72]

@Pankney72

other thing you may notice is the tissue recovery pointed out in the green circles

I’ll respond to this and your other posts I’m tagged in today. Work was busy yesterday.

 

[Pankney72]

@SLOfizz I have tagged you just to let you know I'm responding to @sixty_reefer , including the stuff he sent to you.

So first of all. Since you've brought them up... my credentials... I have a BS in biochem/Molecular Bio, a few years of graduate work in cellular biology in human cells that I sadly left before earning my PhD to complete my MD. I am scientifically literate, but I am not a marine biologist or a professional researcher in any of these fields. This is my hobby, and I love it, and I do my best... that's about all I can say.

Your response to @SLOfizz is incomprehensible. Between typos, misused/uneeded technical terms, and run on sentences I can't even fairly evaluate the points you're trying to make. After reading through several times, I'm guessing they're probably misguided. If you want to write articles you desperately need to improve your writing skills. This is the most serious constructive criticism I can offer. Maybe take an online course?

You are not the highly esteemed Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley. You need references. For. Everything.

To what you've written to me.
1.) There is no way to easily make complex information available to people who don't understand the basics. It's not how knowledge works. Make-believe line graphs muddy this. They don't help. They make it worse.
2.) I am deeply disappointed that you spend so much time talking about atoms and manipulating the microscopic things that effect our tanks and then show me 3 pictures (allegedly) over two weeks and nothing else... and expect me to believe you've solved one of the hobby's mysteries. very disappointed. I think the coral clearly lost mass over the pictures, by the way.

3.) I would happily write some form of review article for the hobby on this forum. I would want a defined topic and a generous deadline. I would also need an invitation and oversight from one of the big names in the hobby. If you know Dr. Holmes-Farley as well as you imply, have him reach out and we'll get an article planned out. 100% I'll do that and do my best... Otherwise, I'm done commenting on this thread. This is my day off and not how I want to spend it. Godspeed.