Triton Core7 Additive Strength - Thoughts?

[rockskimmerflow]

Hi Randy,

I'm very curious as to how Triton might be able to achieve the Core7 dosing supplements high concentration while still maintaining a balanced 1:1 dosing profile. I can only imagine avoiding precipitation in the alkalinity component is quite a challenge at those concentration levels. I'm sure they're not going to give out their proprietary methods, but was just curious if you had some idea of the techniques that might've been used to develop this product. Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How concentrated?

 

[rockskimmerflow]

How concentrated?

Haha, that's an excellent question Randy and to this day nowhere in their literature have I ever been able to find a specific concentration listed for their base elementz or the new Core7. Simply based on the amount of dry mix they provide to create 10L of solution in their base elementz system I'd estimate that it's comparable in potency, albeit slightly more dilute, to your diy recipe #1 - it's likely designed to be easily mixed by the hobbyist without precipitation issues. Now, according to their conversion calculator, the new Core7 additives are 7 times more concentrated than the previous base elementz solutions. So, even if my estimate of their base elementz concentration is a bit off in either direction, you can see why I'm surprised/curious how they managed to pull off an alkalinity component that is 7x that concentration without major precipitation problems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There's nothing one can really do to make sodium carbonate more "soluble", but one can make solutions somewhat more concentrated than my recipe. B-ionic by ESV, for example, is more concentrated. Having good equipment to mix and dissolve it helps.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

There's nothing one can really do to make sodium carbonate more "soluble", but one can make solutions somewhat more concentrated than my recipe. B-ionic by ESV, for example, is more concentrated. Having good equipment to mix and dissolve it helps.

Yes, B-ionic is more concentrated certainly. But we seem to be pushing close to the limit of solubility on the alkalinity component in the ESV system. If I recall, B-ionic adds roughly 1 dkH of alkalinity when 0.5mL is dosed per 1 gallon of water. If the Triton Core7 method is indeed roughly 7x the concentration of recipe #1, then Core7 is still at least 3.5x the B-ionic if not a bit more. The mind boggles - I hear what you're saying about no way to increase solubility, but I don't think Triton would misrepresent their concentration levels. The solution must have some other components in it to allow for supersaturation of the carbonates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, B-ionic is more concentrated certainly. But we seem to be pushing close to the limit of solubility on the alkalinity component in the ESV system. If I recall, B-ionic adds roughly 1 dkH of alkalinity when 0.5mL is dosed per 1 gallon of water. If the Triton Core7 method is indeed roughly 7x the concentration of recipe #1, then Core7 is still at least 3.5x the B-ionic if not a bit more. The mind boggles - I hear what you're saying about no way to increase solubility, but I don't think Triton would misrepresent their concentration levels. The solution must have some other components in it to allow for supersaturation of the carbonates.

I'm not sure what the product is and what the 7x means, but I do not see any way to make a product 7x the concentration of my diy or B-ionic. The B-ionic concentrate often precipitates in the container, and there's no way to add magic ingredients to prevent that.

 

[bubblemytip]

I believe the concentration of the Triton Core7 is 1ml increases 100L by 0.195dKH

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I'm not sure what the product is and what the 7x means, but I do not see any way to make a product 7x the concentration of my diy or B-ionic. The B-ionic concentrate often precipitates in the container, and there's no way to add magic ingredients to prevent that.

Haha ok, fair enough. Just thought you might be the one to know some magic techniques to create a super saturated blend. Whatever they are doing, they claim that 1ml of Core7 additives will equate to 7ml of their Base Elementz and I have no reason to believe they're lying about it's potency... yet. I've ordered some of the Core7 and will be diluting the alkalinity part to a known concentration and testing. Since it is a 4 part additive I'm going to check all 4 parts to see if they've snuck some of the alkalinity into one or more of the other parts. Because they state you must dose all 4 parts equally to maintain stability- I wonder if multiple bottles containing carbonates is how they do it.

If I add 1mL of Core7's alkalinity component to one gallon of RODI, then test the alkalinity of that solution what would be a reading that would cause you to raise an eyebrow an eyebrow? I know if I see 3dkH or higher I'm going to be very (pleasantly) surprised. If their claims are correct I should see a reading of 4 or more dkH if I add 1mL of Core7's alkalinity component to 1 gallon of pure water.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I believe the concentration of the Triton Core7 is 1ml increases 100L by 0.195dKH

Wow if that's correct then my math was even on the low side for it's potency. Now I'm really looking forward to testing a sample of the product.

Edit: So if I did the conversion right 1mL into 1 gal adds 5.08 dkH That's insanity

 

[bfsaunde]

I thought that part 3a and 3b are both alkalinity components. Perhaps this is why they can be combined to only use one dosing pump.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I just saw that. So it puts it only a little more potent than B-ionic (about 15% more potent, B-ionic takes 2.29 mL to make that same boost, and the Triton takes 2 mL), but less potent than the B-ionic concentrate.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Yes, I just saw that. So it puts it only a little more potent than B-ionic (about 15% more potent, B-ionic takes 2.29 mL to make that same boost, and the Triton takes 2 mL), but less potent than the B-ionic concentrate.

Ahh using the 2 components for alkalinity makes sense now. So both alkalinity components are quite concentrated, but not at all beyond the reasonable limit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ahh using the 2 components for alkalinity makes sense now. So both alkalinity components are quite concentrated, but not at all beyond the reasonable limit.

That's my conclusion, yes. Not sure why they have two alk parts, but perhaps partly to make the others more concentrated, and possibly to allow other elements to be added into the alk parts that are not compatible with each other. I'm not sure what these would be, however. Might be obscure things like vanadate.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

That's my conclusion, yes. Not sure why they have two alk parts, but perhaps partly to make the others more concentrated, and possibly to allow other elements to be added into the alk parts that are not compatible with each other. I'm not sure what these would be, however. Might be obscure things like vanadate.

Yep, it does appear to be a novel approach. I should have a sample in my hands sometime next week. I will be testing a dilute sample in pure water of each of the 4 components for any carbonates. We shall see if the concentrations are matched between the (in theory) 2 alkalinity parts. Perhaps one is more concentrated than the other -will be interesting to see either way.

My guesses as to why 4 parts are used: 1 - as you mentioned, to allow for discrete trace elements to be more easily combined 2 - to allow for 1:1 dosing across all parts while still maintaining the appropriate balance of the extensive range of elements that are ostensibly contained in the system, and 3 - Most importantly, to allow for a super high concentrations to be used for the calcium and non-alkalinity bearing components while still providing enough carbonates to maintain that 1:1 dosing profile.

It seems the limiting factor for potency in nearly all 2 part systems is the solubility limit of the carbonate bearing component. Something like the Red Sea brand requires nearly 3:1 dosing of the alkalinity component to keep up with their super concentrated calcium blend. I suspect Triton prefers to make things easier on the customer by saying 'balance alkalinity and dose exactly the same amount of each part at whatever amount is keeping the alkalinity stable.' They offer the option to mix 3a and 3b with a doubling of dosage for those with only 3 channel dosers, and I think that's a smarter play from an ease of customer usage standpoint that simply selling the alkalinity portion in 1 double sized bottle and instructing a 2x dosage on that component from the get go. Some customers just won't be comfortable with mixing anything or adjusting relative dosage rates, so to gain widespread appeal the simplistic 1:1 across all 4 parts was the right move IMO.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Update... received Core7 1L dosing sets. I cracked 1 set open and took 1mL sample from each of the bottles.

Results using Salifert alkalinity kit in the high resolution test mode: (of course there will be testing variance between samples so these will be ballpark numbers based on 2 tests per each sample)

It appears the above information discussed in the thread is largely correct based on the testing. 1mL of solution 3A added 2.8dkh to 1 gallon of pure water. 1mL of 3B added 2.5 dkh to 1 gallon of pure water.

Now this is likely completely due to testing error but I registered about 0.2 dkh from both Part 1 and Part 2 solutions when 1 mL was added to pure water. I'm not sure if there is any merit to this since it is quite insignificant compared to the other components, and I suspect it could simply be the low end of the limit of detection for the Salifert kit I was using that caused and erroneous reading.

So far I am very pleased with the potency of the product and the novel 4 part system employing 2 separate alkalinity components. I look forward to seeing how it stacks up in long term use. Going to begin testing it on one of my smaller propagation systems.

 

[KenO]

So any updates on your testing?

 

[rockskimmerflow]

So any updates on your testing?

Haven't done any more testing since I was satisfied with the logical resolution of my question. The alkalinity does indeed get increased at a rate of about 5 dkH when 1mL/gallon of Core7 is dosed. This is simply because the components 3a and 3b are both high concentration carbonate bearing solutions so in effect we are dosing 2x the volume of alkalinity buffer as we are of calcium or magnesium components.

I've been through at least 17 one liter sets of the stuff now and every tank so far I've switched over has shown improvement. Some corals a lot while others not much noticeable at all. For me it is totally worth it because the deeper blues I'm getting in a couple of my more sensitive acros are better than ever. The growth rate on a red branching psammocora in my collection that I have not seen anywhere else has also nearly doubled which makes me very happy. So I can give a full endorsement of the effectiveness of the Core7 supplement when implemented properly.

I am really displeased with their choice to move to milk carton style packaging rather than the excellently durable, high quality HDPE containers the 1L sets used to ship in. I expect they have the leaking issue fixed, but I'm just bummed overall with the change as a whole since I would have gladly paid more to keep the product in a premium feeling packaging unit. My customers do notice things like that and were very receptive to look and feel of the original bottles. Milk cartons have not been well received... I really do like the quality of the actual supplement solutions themselves though.

 

[KenO]

Haven't done any more testing since I was satisfied with the logical resolution of my question. The alkalinity does indeed get increased at a rate of about 5 dkH when 1mL/gallon of Core7 is dosed. This is simply because the components 3a and 3b are both high concentration carbonate bearing solutions so in effect we are dosing 2x the volume of alkalinity buffer as we are of calcium or magnesium components.

I've been through at least 17 one liter sets of the stuff now and every tank so far I've switched over has shown improvement. Some corals a lot while others not much noticeable at all. For me it is totally worth it because the deeper blues I'm getting in a couple of my more sensitive acros are better than ever. The growth rate on a red branching psammocora in my collection that I have not seen anywhere else has also nearly doubled which makes me very happy. So I can give a full endorsement of the effectiveness of the Core7 supplement when implemented properly.

I am really displeased with their choice to move to milk carton style packaging rather than the excellently durable, high quality HDPE containers the 1L sets used to ship in. I expect they have the leaking issue fixed, but I'm just bummed overall with the change as a whole since I would have gladly paid more to keep the product in a premium feeling packaging unit. My customers do notice things like that and were very receptive to look and feel of the original bottles. Milk cartons have not been well received... I really do like the quality of the actual supplement solutions themselves though.

Thanks for the update. I'm getting ready to start using the product. Just waiting for my ATS to fully mature.

 

[scotty333]

Super old thread but I’m on my second batch of these and the parts 3a and b did not mix at all with total precipitation in both
Swooped for another and was perfect

I’ve seen another thread where Tim from triton suggested you add another 1ltr of ro to each and double your dosage WHAT
I mean and they state you can combine the 2 if you want to use just 3 doser heads instead of 4

Come on now, explain this to a simpleton like me