Toxin in system causing all fish to die?

[pipsqueak]

A pet store I work at has been having issues with marine fish. The tank system has been running for a month, but all fish that are received decline in health in a strange way. For a couple of days they'll appear fine, but then have trouble swimming straight. They seem dizzy, and stop using their tails, as if their back half is paralyzed, then will rest on the substrate for about a day before passing on. It is a slowly progressing ailment, taking about 4 days for chromis, to a week for a valentini puffer to die. They retain their colour until just a few hours before death, and breathing rate increases over time until death. If I suspect a fish will not make it through the night, I buy it, and once out of the store tanks, they improve. For instance, a domino damsel was on death's door, pale and unmoving besides its gills. 4 days later in my tank it is swimming mostly upright and accepting food, though not using it's tail much yet. Yesterday I took home a bicolour blenny that I could have sworn was dead in the bag, this morning it is alert, fully-coloured, and occasionally moving.
It seems to me that there is a toxin of some kind in the store tanks that builds up within the fish while exposed. I have done a 30% water change, which may have slowed the progression of the ailment, but the issue clearly remains. The thin layer of sand used in the tanks was collected from a nearby beach, and I noticed a smaller-grained sparkling black sand settling atop the regular pale sand. Is it possible for it to be something like a sulfate mineral leaching metals into the water? Otherwise, I am at a loss. I will continue to do water changes and see about replacing the sand, but I would love to have some insight on this issue.

Fish affected: Blue chromis, Yellowtail damsels, Domino damsels, Humbug damsels, GHS gobies, Bicolour blennies, Yellow clown gobies, Pyjama cardinals, Valentini puffers, Falco hawkfish, Fire gobies

Parameters of store tanks
Fish only
Sump with filter sock and bioballs, plus a purge system which is switched off (as it would automatically refill with fresh tap water)
UV steriliser
Volume: 400 litres in total
Salinity: 1.021
pH: 8.2
Temp: 25C
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phos: 0

I don't currently have access to more test kits than that.
Water was initially mixed in the tanks, not transferred from a bucket that could have leached chemicals into the water. Salt used is Aquasonic Ocean Salt, which I have been using in my home tank where the fish are recovering. Tap water is filtered (I think by RO? Not sure, exactly) before it pumps into the tanks as automatic top-off, the same with all the freshwater setups which have no such issues. There are aquarium ornaments in the tanks too, but I haven't had a good look at what they're made of. I dose Aquasonic Power and Protech at the recommended dosages.

 

[vetteguy53081]

A pet store I work at has been having issues with marine fish. The tank system has been running for a month, but all fish that are received decline in health in a strange way. For a couple of days they'll appear fine, but then have trouble swimming straight. They seem dizzy, and stop using their tails, as if their back half is paralyzed, then will rest on the substrate for about a day before passing on. It is a slowly progressing ailment, taking about 4 days for chromis, to a week for a valentini puffer to die. They retain their colour until just a few hours before death, and breathing rate increases over time until death. If I suspect a fish will not make it through the night, I buy it, and once out of the store tanks, they improve. For instance, a domino damsel was on death's door, pale and unmoving besides its gills. 4 days later in my tank it is swimming mostly upright and accepting food, though not using it's tail much yet. Yesterday I took home a bicolour blenny that I could have sworn was dead in the bag, this morning it is alert, fully-coloured, and occasionally moving.
It seems to me that there is a toxin of some kind in the store tanks that builds up within the fish while exposed. I have done a 30% water change, which may have slowed the progression of the ailment, but the issue clearly remains. The thin layer of sand used in the tanks was collected from a nearby beach, and I noticed a smaller-grained sparkling black sand settling atop the regular pale sand. Is it possible for it to be something like a sulfate mineral leaching metals into the water? Otherwise, I am at a loss. I will continue to do water changes and see about replacing the sand, but I would love to have some insight on this issue.

Fish affected: Blue chromis, Yellowtail damsels, Domino damsels, Humbug damsels, GHS gobies, Bicolour blennies, Yellow clown gobies, Pyjama cardinals, Valentini puffers, Falco hawkfish, Fire gobies

Parameters of store tanks
Fish only
Sump with filter sock and bioballs, plus a purge system which is switched off (as it would automatically refill with fresh tap water)
UV steriliser
Volume: 400 litres in total
Salinity: 1.021
pH: 8.2
Temp: 25C
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phos: 0

I don't currently have access to more test kits than that.
Water was initially mixed in the tanks, not transferred from a bucket that could have leached chemicals into the water. Salt used is Aquasonic Ocean Salt, which I have been using in my home tank where the fish are recovering. Tap water is filtered (I think by RO? Not sure, exactly) before it pumps into the tanks as automatic top-off, the same with all the freshwater setups which have no such issues. There are aquarium ornaments in the tanks too, but I haven't had a good look at what they're made of. I dose Aquasonic Power and Protech at the recommended dosages.

Ornaments if plastic can be leeching petroleum or other foreign substance.
Salinity should go to 1.023 (typical store salinity) and Tap water is a no-no - Ro not enough- add cartridge for RODI.
How are you testing parameters- All zero readings raises question while Not impossible

 

[Coronus]

Has the system gone through the nitrogen cycle? It’s has taken me sometimes 2 months to properly cycle a tank.
Also tap is a no go……you need rodi water.

 

[pipsqueak]

Ornaments if plastic can be leeching petroleum or other foreign substance.
Salinity should go to 1.023 (typical store salinity) and Tap water is a no-no - Ro not enough- add cartridge for RODI.
How are you testing parameters- All zero readings raises question while Not impossible

Thanks for the reply. The test kits are Aquasonic, which I can't find much info about regarding their accuracy online. I'm not able to use other brands as the store doesn't sell test kits other than Aquasonic and API. I must clarify, I'm only a retail assistant at this place. I was told to keep the tanks as low as 1.020, and I won't be able to suggest changes to the system without decent evidence that it would help, as frustrating as that is.
I added a Prodibio start-up kit 4 weeks ago now. I also noticed that there still isn't any algae growth in the system.
Regarding RO/DI, I have suggested setting up a system for it a few times, but been told that it is not necessary (I believe it is necessary personally, and run one at home). Tap water here has a TDS of about 20-40ppm.
Edited to add: The ornaments are plastic, not sure exactly what kind.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for the reply. The test kits are Aquasonic, which I can't find much info about regarding their accuracy online. I'm not able to use other brands as the store doesn't sell test kits other than Aquasonic and API. I must clarify, I'm only a retail assistant at this place. I was told to keep the tanks as low as 1.020, and I won't be able to suggest changes to the system without decent evidence that it would help, as frustrating as that is.
I added a Prodibio start-up kit 4 weeks ago now. I also noticed that there still isn't any algae growth in the system.
Regarding RO/DI, I have suggested setting up a system for it a few times, but been told that it is not necessary (I believe it is necessary personally, and run one at home). Tap water here has a TDS of about 20-40ppm.
Edited to add: The ornaments are plastic, not sure exactly what kind.

The ornaments and high TDS ARE problems in this situation. I understand the reason behind low salinity for disease control

 

[Tamberav]

Honestly I QT my fish in tap water with prime. TDS 135ish.

Can you run carbon? Even a big bag in a sock or whatever.

 

[pipsqueak]

Honestly I QT my fish in tap water with prime. TDS 135ish.

Can you run carbon? Even a big bag in a sock or whatever.

I probably could, since it's something that the store sells! Thanks for the suggestion

 

[Malcontent]

Do you have chlorine/chloramine? Carbon can remove it but it needs a long contact time and to be replaced/checked frequently. Stores that use a lot of water are more likely than home users to have this problem.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

A pet store I work at has been having issues with marine fish. The tank system has been running for a month, but all fish that are received decline in health in a strange way. For a couple of days they'll appear fine, but then have trouble swimming straight. They seem dizzy, and stop using their tails, as if their back half is paralyzed, then will rest on the substrate for about a day before passing on. It is a slowly progressing ailment, taking about 4 days for chromis, to a week for a valentini puffer to die. They retain their colour until just a few hours before death, and breathing rate increases over time until death. If I suspect a fish will not make it through the night, I buy it, and once out of the store tanks, they improve. For instance, a domino damsel was on death's door, pale and unmoving besides its gills. 4 days later in my tank it is swimming mostly upright and accepting food, though not using it's tail much yet. Yesterday I took home a bicolour blenny that I could have sworn was dead in the bag, this morning it is alert, fully-coloured, and occasionally moving.
It seems to me that there is a toxin of some kind in the store tanks that builds up within the fish while exposed. I have done a 30% water change, which may have slowed the progression of the ailment, but the issue clearly remains. The thin layer of sand used in the tanks was collected from a nearby beach, and I noticed a smaller-grained sparkling black sand settling atop the regular pale sand. Is it possible for it to be something like a sulfate mineral leaching metals into the water? Otherwise, I am at a loss. I will continue to do water changes and see about replacing the sand, but I would love to have some insight on this issue.

Fish affected: Blue chromis, Yellowtail damsels, Domino damsels, Humbug damsels, GHS gobies, Bicolour blennies, Yellow clown gobies, Pyjama cardinals, Valentini puffers, Falco hawkfish, Fire gobies

Parameters of store tanks
Fish only
Sump with filter sock and bioballs, plus a purge system which is switched off (as it would automatically refill with fresh tap water)
UV steriliser
Volume: 400 litres in total
Salinity: 1.021
pH: 8.2
Temp: 25C
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phos: 0

I don't currently have access to more test kits than that.
Water was initially mixed in the tanks, not transferred from a bucket that could have leached chemicals into the water. Salt used is Aquasonic Ocean Salt, which I have been using in my home tank where the fish are recovering. Tap water is filtered (I think by RO? Not sure, exactly) before it pumps into the tanks as automatic top-off, the same with all the freshwater setups which have no such issues. There are aquarium ornaments in the tanks too, but I haven't had a good look at what they're made of. I dose Aquasonic Power and Protech at the recommended dosages.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Could you send out some of the water for ICP analysis? That will not tell you if there are organic toxins in the water, but it will tell you if there are chemical elements that are out of balance.

Are ALL of the fish affected to some degree? If some are and some are not, that tends to move away from it being a toxin in the water. Also, any invertebrates in the system? If there are, and they are fine, then toxins are probably not the issue, as they would be affected first.

A 30% water change will, like you said, only reduce the problem, larger water changes, amounting to over 100% are likely needed. Then, if the toxin is coming from something in the tank, they may build back up over time.

Jay

 

[Weeb]

Rare, but sometimes I have discovered that the wrong adhesives/glue was used in the assembly of plumbing.

 

[sixty_reefer]

A pet store I work at has been having issues with marine fish. The tank system has been running for a month, but all fish that are received decline in health in a strange way. For a couple of days they'll appear fine, but then have trouble swimming straight. They seem dizzy, and stop using their tails, as if their back half is paralyzed, then will rest on the substrate for about a day before passing on. It is a slowly progressing ailment, taking about 4 days for chromis, to a week for a valentini puffer to die. They retain their colour until just a few hours before death, and breathing rate increases over time until death. If I suspect a fish will not make it through the night, I buy it, and once out of the store tanks, they improve. For instance, a domino damsel was on death's door, pale and unmoving besides its gills. 4 days later in my tank it is swimming mostly upright and accepting food, though not using it's tail much yet. Yesterday I took home a bicolour blenny that I could have sworn was dead in the bag, this morning it is alert, fully-coloured, and occasionally moving.
It seems to me that there is a toxin of some kind in the store tanks that builds up within the fish while exposed. I have done a 30% water change, which may have slowed the progression of the ailment, but the issue clearly remains. The thin layer of sand used in the tanks was collected from a nearby beach, and I noticed a smaller-grained sparkling black sand settling atop the regular pale sand. Is it possible for it to be something like a sulfate mineral leaching metals into the water? Otherwise, I am at a loss. I will continue to do water changes and see about replacing the sand, but I would love to have some insight on this issue.

Fish affected: Blue chromis, Yellowtail damsels, Domino damsels, Humbug damsels, GHS gobies, Bicolour blennies, Yellow clown gobies, Pyjama cardinals, Valentini puffers, Falco hawkfish, Fire gobies

Parameters of store tanks
Fish only
Sump with filter sock and bioballs, plus a purge system which is switched off (as it would automatically refill with fresh tap water)
UV steriliser
Volume: 400 litres in total
Salinity: 1.021
pH: 8.2
Temp: 25C
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Phos: 0

I don't currently have access to more test kits than that.
Water was initially mixed in the tanks, not transferred from a bucket that could have leached chemicals into the water. Salt used is Aquasonic Ocean Salt, which I have been using in my home tank where the fish are recovering. Tap water is filtered (I think by RO? Not sure, exactly) before it pumps into the tanks as automatic top-off, the same with all the freshwater setups which have no such issues. There are aquarium ornaments in the tanks too, but I haven't had a good look at what they're made of. I dose Aquasonic Power and Protech at the recommended dosages.

Do you know how was the tank cycled? All those zeros on the parameters don't seem right to me, you should have some nitrite and nitrate. I would recommend to try and test for ammonia with a different brand test kit.

 

[Tamberav]

I probably could, since it's something that the store sells! Thanks for the suggestion

Oh another thing your store might have is seachem prime, you could add some of that in case there is any chlorine or it claims to help with heavy metals too.

 

[pipsqueak]

It's been a while, but I got an ICP analysis. I've been using old water from my home tank for water changes on this system, which is a bandaid solution but at least it keeps the fish alive. Of course, sample sent to Triton was taken before I used any of my own tank water. Nitrates are up a bit now, sitting at about 20-30ppm, and since this analysis I've increased salinity to 1.022-1.023. Fish are looking healthy, they get better with every water change, but if I stop the water changes or use water mixed from the store's tap water and salt then symptoms quickly return. Just thought I'd add the analysis in case anyone else has a similar issue.
Also, all fish were affected except for Coral Beauties. They seem resistant, which is interesting as Bicolour Angels fared very poorly in the same water. No invertebrates.
https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/65463

 

[Boreas_SA]

From the ICP it looks like a lot of heavy metals are very elevated, can you run Cuprisorb in the store tanks on a permanent basis?

 

[TokenReefer]

Are they resistant to get a RODI setup? Seems that would eliminate a number of variables coming in from the tap water... Save the fish and some money. I don't see a downside personally

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's been a while, but I got an ICP analysis. I've been using old water from my home tank for water changes on this system, which is a bandaid solution but at least it keeps the fish alive. Of course, sample sent to Triton was taken before I used any of my own tank water. Nitrates are up a bit now, sitting at about 20-30ppm, and since this analysis I've increased salinity to 1.022-1.023. Fish are looking healthy, they get better with every water change, but if I stop the water changes or use water mixed from the store's tap water and salt then symptoms quickly return. Just thought I'd add the analysis in case anyone else has a similar issue.
Also, all fish were affected except for Coral Beauties. They seem resistant, which is interesting as Bicolour Angels fared very poorly in the same water. No invertebrates.
https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/65463

With no invertebrates in the system, you can't use them as "canaries in the coal mine" - if you had them and they all died first, then it is most likely a water quality issue. Without them, you only have the fish deaths to use as a diagnostic tool

Looking at your ICP report, as noted, some elements are too high. Oddly, some seem too low - copper is zero for example. Some animals needs copper as a micronutrient, it shouldn't be at zero. Molybdenum, Zinc and Manganese are all way too high. I don't know about the other two, but toxicity for Zinc shows up around 30 to 50 ug/l. It is also variable between species, so that could account for differences in fish deaths.

Also, it may not be the toxicity of the elements being out of range themselves, but rather WHY they are, that caused the issue.....bad salt, toxic compounds in the decorations, etc.

Jay

 

[Weeb]

can you run Cuprisorb in the store tanks on a permanent basis?

Seachem says:
"Any product can be overdosed, and CupriSorb™ is no exception. Elements like copper are very dangerous to fish and invertebrates when present in high concentrations, but depleting these elements from the tank completely can result in symptoms of trace element deficiency like tissue degradation, poor coloration, and improper growth patterns. Use CupriSorb™ only as needed to reduce dangerous levels of metals."