The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Jay Norris]

Taking a drive to a secluded beach tomorrow. I don't want somebody's sun block. Plenty of beaches here in Western Australia that have zero visitors. Nice bucket of sand to collect.

Hi are you collecting the sand in the water, if so go out as far as you can to collect it. When I need sand I have to go out in the boat to collect it, from the Outer Reefs here in the Upper Florida Keys.

 

[Paul B]

Yes it is, and it is in the sea like all metals.
So is lead, arsenic, kryptonite, radon, uranium, un-optanium and Raid insect killer.

At the bottom of the sea are volcanic steam vents. Every metal on or in the Earth comes out of those things. They are always here and always have been here. Our fish evolved with them and need most of them. Probably even mercury and lead.
It's in us and our fish.

 

[BeejReef]

Anyone have any strong thoughts on miracle mud?

 

[Dana Riddle]

I think he did. I am not one to go along with Dr. Ron's theories. (especially that deep sand thing. Him and me are the same age and got into the hobby the same year) After saying that, I believe the metals in a tablespoon of mud you take from Puget Sound, or Love Canal for that matter would be considered trace elements in a tank as he is not taking all his water from there. Just a tiny bit.

The ocean, even over a coral reef is loaded with metals and most of them are needed and probably missing in a tank. (Ref: Me.)
I started my still running tank with water from the East River in Manhattan. There is probably no place more polluted than that and it is the oldest tank on here, not that I would advocate anyone do that. But metals, all metals are needed in a reef.

I could see if he was throwing a 4 speed transmission from a Thunderbird in there, but he is not.
I say, Be a Man and collect that Mud. Let the Nay Sayers say Nay.

With all due respect to Dr. Shimek, I was skeptical of his findings. Presence of metals doesn't guarantee solubility nor toxicity. With that said, something crazy could happen in an aquarium (wild pH modulations) that could solubilize those metals. Might never happen, but maybe it could. Just my opinion, and we all know the saying about opinions.

 

[Paul B]

Dana, i did say, if he quarantines he should not do that and neither would I. But as I said a tablespoon of sand or mud would have such a small amount of anything we can call metal that I think it is like spitting in the wind as far as metal pollution.
IMO the small amount of bacteria or pods he collects will be far more a benefit than the minute possibility of metal doing anything harmful.
Of course if he collects old thermostats (Like I did) and pulls out the mercury switches (I have a bucket of them) then he may have a problem.

 

[Jay Norris]

Anyone have any strong thoughts on miracle mud?

I think they collect it in Puget Sound.

 

[Lasse]

Mercury is a metal.[emoji57]

Cadmium too - both with not known bilogical functions (more than to kill organisms)

I have no problem to add tacemetals but I want to know which and how much

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Yep. This is one of the dangers will collecting stuff and putting it in your tank. When I collect pods and crabs as feed, I rinse the heck out of them. There are real possible dangers to adding collected substrates.

I have no problem to take sediments from the water around there I live - but I do not collect sludge from places with known problems in open water as Puget Sound, Chesapeake Bay, outside Stenungsund or Brofjorden (places in Sweden with heavy sediment contamination)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Oldsalt]

K
I
S
S
If a man lives close enough to the reefs and wants a chunk of it in his lounge room, all he needs is to get a tank, tubing, lights and a good pump. The ocean is his sump. That "sump" is going to be vastly more stable than one only a fraction of the size of the tank. Logic would dictate that the eco-stability of a sump increases in proportion to its size. Does it mean that the trend in saltwater aquariums will be ever increasing sump sizes, or ones that are as natural and stable as we can keep them? Is there a magic tank to sump ratio for "success"? There are so many questions we ask ourselves and just as many tank:sump configurations out there. This is evolution folks. Things are going to continue to change as information is shared. We are so fortunate to be living in times where information obtained from someone else's experience can be found at the click of a mouse button.

 

[Frogger]

I have also brought in Red Planaria as diversity.

How'd that work out for you? Didn't work out to well for me.

I have a boat load of vermetid snails and colonial hydroids if any one wants some for diversity. I also have some montipora nudibranch if anyone is looking.

 

[Subsea]

How'd that work out for you? Didn't work out to well for me.

I have a boat load of vermetid snails and colonial hydroids if any one wants some for diversity. I also have some montipora nudibranch if anyone is looking.

About the same as Aptasia. I dealt with it.

 

[Paul B]

I have enough flatworms to shingle my house. No problem, they aren't doing anything but being flat. Vermetid snails. Too many to count, I find them to be no problem. The corals deal with them. I don't have aiptaisa as my copperband would ruin their day and I certainly don't have majano's because I invented the "Majano Wand" and have a few laying around.

What I do have is a diversity of bacteria and thousands of amphipods and copepods which is the bottom of the food chain.
These things have been in my tank since Nixon was President and so far I don't have problems with them. I also never dipped a coral, never lost a fish from flukes or intestinal worms.

Healthy fish in a natural tank don't seem to have these problems that many tanks get. All the life I have in there lives peacefully with each other and I consider them to be Free inverts.

I have had the flatworms quite a few times, they disappear after a while when they get bored. It's the same with aiptisia and hair algae.
I don't have to worry about those things like so many people do.
Of course if I found a flounder or one of these. I would remove it.



Then, of course, I would eat it.

 

[Subsea]

Anyone have any strong thoughts on miracle mud?

Miracle Mud is mostly inert with a grain size that promotes worms in substrate. The original miracle mud was high in iron as evidenced by attachment to cleaning magnets. In my present 25 year old Jaubert Plenum display, I bought the system used with miracle mud in it. With 20 years use and no replacement, the mud depth increased from 1/2” to 3/4” and it felt spongy to the touch.

I never considered MM of real value for iron/mineral addition. The 20 year mature mud filter was full of detritus and crawling with worms of every kind. For iron supplements I use an iron rich media from Seachem. If colors of macro or coral fade, I dose iron, otherwise I let things adjust themselves by feeding heavy.

With respect to heavy metals in water, if it were not for those heavy metals, our corals would cease to flourish. Previous to moving to Texas, I lived in western Louisiana which was the recharge zone for the Chichot Aquifier. With a sandy loam soil & 50” of rain/yr, the trace metals were washed away from the soil. The 20 acre homesite which I moved onto had 4’ diameter pecan trees which sporadically produced every other year. With the addition of chelated zinc, the pecan harvest were so abundant that some lateral branches broke from the weight.


When I grew Red Ogo, Gracilaria Parvispora, for human consumption, I had it dry analyzed by a regional agriculture laboratory:

N: 2.59 %
P: 0.082 %
K: 13.54 %
Ca: 0.555 %
Mg: 1.163 %
S: 4.81 %
Zn: 139 ppm
Fe: 107 ppm
Mn: 20 ppm
Cu: 7 ppm

PS: Added a few sponges yesterday. Aquascaping is fun.

 

[Subsea]

I have enough flatworms to shingle my house. No problem, they aren't doing anything but being flat. Vermetid snails. Too many to count, I find them to be no problem. The corals deal with them. I don't have aiptaisa as my copperband would ruin their day and I certainly don't have majano's because I invented the "Majano Wand" and have a few laying around.

What I do have is a diversity of bacteria and thousands of amphipods and copepods which is the bottom of the food chain.
These things have been in my tank since Nixon was President and so far I don't have problems with them. I also never dipped a coral, never lost a fish from flukes or intestinal worms.

Healthy fish in a natural tank don't seem to have these problems that many tanks get. All the life I have in there lives peacefully with each other and I consider them to be Free inverts.

I have had the flatworms quite a few times, they disappear after a while when they get bored. It's the same with aiptisia and hair algae.
I don't have to worry about those things like so many people do.
Of course if I found a flounder or one of these. I would remove it.



Then, of course, I would eat it.

Every time I look at your pictures, I get hungry. Where are the clams and save some crabs for me!!!

I will bring the crawfish. We can call them Petite Lobster.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x865b32cd0200306f:0x66dcba2136d8b778!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipNRhSD4ipbZdFabTrWMjqRSYv81BvsVC4agqttU=w1024-h682-n-k-no!5sGoogle Search&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipNRhSD4ipbZdFabTrWMjqRSYv81BvsVC4agqttU&viewerState=ga#

 

[Paul B]

We don't have crawfish here, so we have to use these.

https://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/IMG_12681_zpsjixigfns.jpg

 

[Lasse]

​

Aquarium of SubSea

I can see some similarities

Aquarium of Lasse

​

Sincerely Lasse

 

[William Buchanan]

​

Aquarium of SubSea

I can see some similarities [emoji4]

Aquarium of Lasse

​

Sincerely Lasse

How many gallons are these two tanks? Talk about something to shoot for! Beautiful job to both of you!

 

[Lasse]

My is only 80 gallon in the DT

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Just a note - do you know the country of cray fish party? - just Google crayfish party Sweden - here is a teaser

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

Here is how the Seattle aquarium does it: (they take their water from Puget sound):

https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_in_Elliott_Bay_Puget_Sound_WA/figures?lo=1

Its interesting to see what level of filtration - sand, UV, ozone, carbon, etc used before the puget sound water gets into the aquarium 'pacific coral reef tank'.

@Paul B is probably correct that depending on the amount of water etc used its a drop in the bucket. That said - Since no one knows 'whats' in the mud or water (and since Puget sound has high levels of chemicals especially in the mud/sediments) - IMHO it comes down to the question - what are you trying to accomplish? If I have a choice of adding something to my tank that 'might' make a positive difference that also has a chance of causing a negative effect - I'm not sure I would just 'give it a try'.

Especially when there is no evidence that adding organisms/etc from a cold water reef will have any beneficial effect on a warm water reef. To me - there would be a much higher potential to release a virus or something to which the warm tank inhabitants had not been exposed to - As I said - there is very little chance that animals.bacteria would do well.

@Paul B - disagreeing with someone doesn't make them a naysayer especially when the naysayers are giving rationale for why it MIGHT not make sense. Especially when the original comment was paraphrased 'just do it it probably won't hurt'.