The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Lasse]

Some people that got the vaccine died from the vaccine

This is not true for the Swedish vaccination programs even if there have been rumours about it.

But if they add a fish to an 'immune' tank - and the fish happens to not be immune to all of the parasites in the tank, a certain number of them will die(and a certain number will gain immunity)

There is - as I said before - two types of defence mechanisms and the unspecific response system is better in fishes compared with us. And it is a question of pathogen pressure (read – amount of pathogens) – If the introduction will be rather stress free (as for me than the new fish will go alone in the refugium) and that they will be accepted (smell and so on) of the other fishes when introduced in the DT – the unspecific defence system will be enough an give time for the specific system to develop. But is a question of pathogen pressure and stress.

So setting aside "normal" pathogens, "normal" exposure to disease, vaccines and such - would you deliberately expose a single fish to every known disease and pathogen as a strategy to maintain long term health for that fish?

First Paul B is a provocateur

Second - It’s a question of pathogen pressure as I say before. I do not introduce fishes that are clearly infected, but I have had introductions of some cardinals that rather fast show up signs of a (probably) bacterial disease I have seen in Cardinals before. However, some of the introduced fishes survive and later introduction of the same species have worked out well.

I personally feel it is best to limit disease and pathogen exposure as much as possible. Don't put a lot of fish in the tank, keep lots and lots of filter feeders as consumers of parasites and disease, use top quality food, maintain good water quality, avoid adding diseased fish to the tank, keep stress levels low - that sort of stuff. How quarantine fits in may be a matter of debate. But purposefully exposing fish to disease doesn't seem like a good idea in my opinion.

When I talk about "immune mature tanks" I do not mean that every single organism has immunity but that the whole system act as it was immune. This include predation of pathogens from filter feeders, corals and so one. The pathogen pressure is important. just take a needle – put it through your skin in your hand – hurt – but no damage – do it 10 times, 100 times - no worry – but do it 1 000 000 times – no hand left!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Frogger]

My oxydator arrived last week. As I am currently in the process of trying something new I will wait until I am finished and my tank is stabilized before I hook the Oxydator up as I do not want to confuse my tanks response.

 

[Lasse]

If you have an adequate biosecurity program with SPF shrimp

I´m afraid that this include use of a lot of antibiotics - it has been a major problem in Asian shrimp farms

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Just for interest @Subsea , I also use an oxydator and measure DO levels this is the last weeks levels (the scale on vertical axis is incorrect please divide values by 10) so my average is 7 mg/l

View attachment 976639

Which temperature do you have - if you have over 25 C - you have more than 100 % saturation in that tank!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mortie31]

Which temperature do you have - if you have over 25 C - you have more than 100 % saturation in that tank!

Sincerely Lasse

I run 25.6C in the winter and 26.5C in the summer

 

[Lasse]

100 % saturation at 25.6 in freshwater is 8.17. Saltwater has 1 - 1.5 mg lower saturation at the same temperature - it means that your low 6.99 is near 100 % saturation and that your high 7,8 mg/l is over 100 % saturation. Outstanding if the calibration is right!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Mortie31]

100 % saturation at 25.6 in freshwater is 8.17. Saltwater has 1 - 1.5 mg lower saturation at the same temperature - it means that your low 6.99 is near 100 % saturation and that your high 7,8 mg/l is over 100 % saturation. Outstanding if the calibration is right!

Sincerely Lasse

I do find I have to calibrate my O2 probe a couple of times a month to keep it accurate, it’s actually interesting to play around with the oxygen generating systems in my tank, apart from the Oxydator, the most effective way to increase DO is by opening my overflow pipe valves and lowering the water level in my weir so the water crashes 18” vertically, this creates some huge DO figures if memory serves me right I got over 9mg/l doing this for several hours.... trouble is the noise is too much so not practical...

 

[Paul B]

what I don't understand is why others have significant problems doing this

I don't either.

 

[Mortie31]

I don't either.

It’s probably because so many leave the hobby after a few years, having bought all the latest equipment, spent thousands on frags and expensive fish, rushed everything, killed most of it, got frustrated and sold up the rest...

 

[MnFish1]

This is not true for the Swedish vaccination programs even if there have been rumours about it.


Sincerely Lasse

Actually it’s not like people die from the vaccine itself. They can have severe reactions to the vaccine. Neurological etc. if severe these can lead to death. It’s a very small risk.

 

[Hermie]

I specifically threw in the T bone steaks for your benefit. I understand - what I don't understand is why others have significant problems doing this. With entire tanks being wiped out within a week of adding a new fish (and I'm talking without quarantine). It can 't be just 'shipping stress' because then only the new fish would die. I (sorry) just don't think that feeding parasites, bacteria helps - so I'm kind of discounting that - trying to find other reasons (and this is all my theory as well)

I think it's from under feeding

 

[MnFish1]

I think it's from under feeding

There are probably many reasons but u derfeeding wouldnt cause every fish in a tank to die within a week. Especially if the tank inhabitants are all well fed and doing well. One wonders about toxins but many times the corals etc are fine

 

[MnFish1]

I think it's from under feeding

There are probably many reasons but u derfeeding wouldnt cause every fish in a tank to die within a week. Especially if the tank inhabitants are all well fed and doing well. One wonders about toxins but many times the corals etc are fine

 

[Hermie]

There are probably many reasons but u derfeeding wouldnt cause every fish in a tank to die within a week. Especially if the tank inhabitants are all well fed and doing well. One wonders about toxins but many times the corals etc are fine

I mean of course every case is different, but IMO, "healthy looking fish" could still be "immunologically" stunted and then when an "unknown" pathogen is introduced, they are already at a disadvantage. I mean, new hobbyists are taught to not over feed because as long as the fish's fins are "flipping" then it's "doing well," but what if months down the road the fish hasn't grown in size at all, it's either an adult or it isn't being fed enough to put on size. Like others have mentioned, the body's energy is diverted to the most important systems, of which immune response is put at a lower priority given a stable environment.

 

[Subsea]

Thats very cool. I respect Veterans greatly.



I can send you 5 lbs of ulva every time I lift my anchor. The stuff covers the areas where I boat a foot thick.

Eureka!

Paul, Now I understand why Long Island Pods wait in line to get in the water. It’s the Ulva salad bar on your anchor.

 

[Subsea]

That would be my thought as well, which is why I questioned the comment that essentially only one strain will survive. It doesn't makes sense to me, but nature can be strange and I'm certainly not an expert.

In forestry, Climax Forest describes a process that tracks an eco system over centuries. Eventually, dominant species outcompete and dominate the System. There is a similar analogy in the Old School Reef Tank Almanac: Old Tank Syndrome. Ken Felderman research papers on Carbon Dosing at Advanced Aquaria postulate that free swimming bacteria populations that are dramatically reduced by aggressive protein skimmers could be the missing ingredient that promotes lack of diversity in Old Tank Syndrome.

 

[Subsea]

Just for interest @Subsea , I also use an oxydator and measure DO levels this is the last weeks levels (the scale on vertical axis is incorrect please divide values by 10) so my average is 7 mg/l

View attachment 976639

I always marveled at you guys with imaulate SPS tank’s. Now I know how you do it. You guys put
Mister Clean to work.

With so many tanks, I don’t automatic on each. With a portable DO meter I can batch dose peroxide at Venturi nozzles into bulkwater. This 55G growout tank is a case study. I add the first batch last night at 20 ml of 35% H2O2 to be repeated every 24 hours.

 

[MnFish1]

Actually it’s not like people die from the vaccine itself. They can have severe reactions to the vaccine. Neurological etc. if severe these can lead to death. It’s a very small risk.

By the way I'm not talking about problems like autism, etc I'm talking about immune neurologic symptoms like encephalitis.

 

[Rybren]

@Subsea what are the two clear reactors that you are running (the ones lit up with the red LED strips)?

 

[Subsea]

I always marveled at you guys with imaulate SPS tank’s. Now I know how you do it. You guys put
Mister Clean to work.

With so many tanks, I don’t automatic on each. With a portable DO meter I can batch dose peroxide at Venturi nozzles into bulkwater. This 55G growout tank is a case study. I add the first batch last night at 20 ml of 35% H2O2 to be repeated every 24 hours. View attachment 977325

Both of these reactor are for phytoplankton. The skinny tube started out with 16’ of led lights at 72W, but because of heat gain was reduced to 6’ at 18W.

Not in the picture, but I have a diy zooplankton macro reactor, whose main purpose is zooplankton. I used all 16’ on it and am using the heat gain from 72W of led grow lights to accelerate growth.