The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MnFish1]

Not so serious This last surgery (4/1-19) was because of incisional hernia from a surgery of acute volvulus last spring. But I´m used of it – it was my tenth large surgery but no open heart (yet)

Sincerely Lasse

Glad you're on the mend.

 

[BeejReef]

Lasse

I absolutely agree with all of this. Stress is to be avoided. Exposure to "normal occurrences of pathogens" is generally beneficial. Individuals have the ability to adapt to disease and environmental factors. Tank biodiversity is extremely important. Populations can adapt to disease over time. No debate whatsoever from me.

The thread topic however seems to imply that deliberate exposure to "all known pathogens" is a good strategy for a single fish. This is what Subsea is talking about with regard to shrimp. It seems to be what Paul is advocating. This does not seem wise to me. I have had cancer twice. I don't seem any healthier as a consequence and my best chance of survival moving forward seems to be avoiding cancer a third time. I would not expose myself, my children or my dog to "all known pathogens". A population of individuals may benefit over time from exposure to all known diseases but for a single individual - disease avoidance is the best strategy.

So setting aside "normal" pathogens, "normal" exposure to disease, vaccines and such - would you deliberately expose a single fish to every known disease and pathogen as a strategy to maintain long term health for that fish?

I personally feel it is best to limit disease and pathogen exposure as much as possible. Don't put a lot of fish in the tank, keep lots and lots of filter feeders as consumers of parasites and disease, use top quality food, maintain good water quality, avoid adding diseased fish to the tank, keep stress levels low - that sort of stuff. How quarantine fits in may be a matter of debate. But purposefully exposing fish to disease doesn't seem like a good idea in my opinion.

Scott

You make an excellent point. Anything can be taken to extremes. Does your kid benefit from being in daycare, catching a lot of "germies" and building up a strong immune response, as opposed to children who never leave the house and bathe in hand sanitizer until they're dropped off into the cesspool of Kindergarten? I'd imagine so. Still, I'm not jumping on a plan to Zaire the next time there's a minor ebola outbreak to make sure my child has the chance to fight it off.

I'm really, really debating this concept myself, as I'm filling my tank as we speak. Strongly considering 5 gal of natural, unfiltered seawater as well, to, hopefully, start off with a good biome. I only know what I see on the internet though. The best I can figure is that there's no perfect solution. My hypothesis is that, if you're going to keep a tank and have periodic livestock additions, it might be a matter of time either way. A matter of time until something nasty gets through QT and devastates you DT, or a matter of time until allowing and pursuing diversity and immunity ends up in an "ebola" pathegen being introduced that easily kills even the healthiest, most resilient speciment. The question is, which timeline is longer

 

[Lasse]

We've discussed it several times here - The full bus theory also goes against the idea that its a good idea to keep adding more and more bacteria to a tank. In a 'mature tank' - the bus is indeed full. If you keep adding more bacteria - 1 of 2 things will happen - old bacteria will be taken over by 'new bacteria' or the new bacteria will just die off.

Exact - I do not believe in probiotic treatment either with some exceptions. If the microbiological system is disturbed or not there (new tank) it will be a good idea to use probiotic treatment. I have been on heavy medication of antibiotics since beginning of last week after an incident during stomach surgery – when I finished that I start to drink and eat products that are probiotic in order to restore my bacterial fauna.

I use probiotic treatment when I start a new tank, but I do it in two steps. First, I try to add as much as possible of nitrification fauna and when it is established I try to establish other bacteria – heterotrophs. But not at the same time – first nitrification bacteria (autotrophic bacteria) – second “break down bacteria (heterotrophic bacteria)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ths_and_myths_about_SPF_shrimp_in_Aquaculture

Shrimp domestication and genetic improvement programmes began in late 1980s, in the United States of America, under the United States Marine Shrimp Farming Program (USMSFP), using the Pacific whiteleg shrimp Penaeus van-namei. The USMSFP was based on proven concepts from the livestock and poultry industries and began with establishing a specific pathogen-free (SPF) shrimp stock. The original shrimp stock was obtained using rigorous screening of captured wild shrimp for selection of individuals naturally free of major shrimp pathogens. Although the concept of SPF animals was well defined for terrestrial animals, it was relatively new for aquaculture, and it took some time to be adopted by the aquaculture community. In the early 1990s, parallel to USMSFP, several other programmes on genetic improvement of shrimp were also initiated in Latin America. Subsequently, several new terminologies and products, such as specific pathogen resistant (SPR) shrimp, specific pathogen tolerant (SPT) shrimp and even 'all pathogen exposed' (APE) shrimp, entered the shrimp industry vocabulary and became commercial. This led to confusion in the shrimp industry about the meaning, relationship and significance of these new terms with respect to SPF. This position paper attempts to clarify these concepts, provide science-based definitions, reconfirms the importance of developing, maintaining and using domesticated, specific pathogen-free (SPF) shrimp stocks (which may also achieve SPR and/or SPT status) to reduce the risk of disease outbreaks and increase production and profit. The same principles would apply to development of domesticated SPF stocks for other species used in aquaculture. The paper also discusses the difficulties of confirming and certifying SPF status due to the presence of endogenous viral elements (EVEs) and calls for internationally agreed science and evidence-based technical guidelines for producing healthy shrimp.

In the abstract itself it says 'This position paper attempts to clarify these concepts, provide science-based definitions, reconfirms the importance of developing, maintaining and using domesticated, specific pathogen-free (SPF) shrimp stocks (which may also achieve SPR and/or SPT status) to reduce the risk of disease outbreaks and increase production and profit."

I think you may have misunderstood the paper - its conclusions are different than yours (unless I'm misunderstanding).

What follows is from the 'body' of the paper (unfortunately the entire PDF would not load - but it also contradicts some of what you're saying:

The availability of SPF stocks of P. vannamei together with pathogen exclusion biosecurity strategy was very effective and rapidly led to it becoming the dominant cultivated shrimp species in Asia.”



“Because of the benefits of using domesticated and genetically improved SPF stocks of P. vannamei to produce healthy PLs for farmers to use in stocking their ponds, the term SPF in Asia began to be related to stocks with higher disease resistance or tolerance. The opposite situation occurred in Latin America where SPF shrimp were stocked in ponds with no pathogen exclusion biosecurity leading to mass mortalities and leading to farmer perception that SPF status implied higher disease susceptibility. This perception was incorrect. SPF only indicates the sanitary status of a stock and gives no indication of its susceptibility, resistance or tolerance to infection and disease.”

Like I said - unfortunately - I couldn't get to the part of the article that defined APE shrimp - but - The main conclusions of the article seem to favor the other.


“This dichotomous approach resulted in the creation of new terms such as specific pathogen resistant (SPR) stocks and specific pathogen tolerant (SPT) stocks that led to confusion in the shrimp industry regarding the meaning, relationship and significance of these new terms with respect to SPF. While mistaken perceptions of SPF and SPR have long been recognized, the paramount need for SPF domesticated shrimp stocks and SPF as a novel and emerging technology that will support sustainable shrimp aquaculture were emphasized during the Global Conference on Aquaculture 2010.”

 

[MnFish1]

https://penaeid.com/

Superior Breeding
Means Superior Quality
American Penaeid is the largest shrimp farming company in America. While it is becoming increasingly difficult to grow profitable shrimp crops, we work hard to supply our customers with the most vigorous and resilient shrimp possible by breeding APE (All Pathogen Exposed) shrimp.

@MnFish1
This is one example of “natural filtration” technology.

Working with the Best
President Robin Pearl is an entrepreneur who has founded several companies in diverse fields with sustainable undertones. In 2014, he co-founded API and worked to build it into the largest indoor shrimp farm in the United States. API is now successfully producing all natural, chemical-free and fresh shrimp available year-round in commercial quantities for markets across the world.

Yes. The summary article has a different conclusion though - its interesting that you got your APE stock from Latin America (where the use of SPF or SPR shrimp didnt work because of an inadequate biosecurity program).

My conclusion based on your example is this:

If you have an adequate biosecurity program with SPF shrimp - you have good production. (as they did in Asia)
If you have an inadequate biosecurity program with SPF shrimp - you have bad production. (as they did in Latin America)
If you have an inadequate biosecurity program with APE shrimp - you have good production. As you seem to have.

But - This does not imply that SPF shrimp are more susceptible to disease. (It says this specifically in the review article you provided).

To me the shrimp example gives no evidence that exposing fish to pathogens would be beneficial. It might be equivalent better or worse - but this article doesn't advance any argument for or against fish QT (IMO)

 

[Subsea]

[QUOTE="Subsea, post: 5701562, member: 103573"

It’s as relevant as my 25 year mature tank. It’s as relevant as Paul’s 48 year old tank. Neither one of us quarantine.

Relevant is in the eye of the beholder. Viva la difference!

I have a 32 year old mature tank. Which I suspect only proves that I'm persistent and old.

And if you are arguing that truth is relative - I'm not sure that is any more helpful than the shrimp farm example.[/QUOTE]


Truth is not relative. Perception of the truth is relative. Opinions are relative.

Truth is Truth.

 

[Subsea]

I use an oxydator A placed in my return chamber. Water have to through the display in order to reach my RFDSB (ReversedFlowDeepSandBed) During daytime - the oxygen from the photosynthesis would be a greater problem than the oxydator - but I have not notice anything negative things. In the future - I plan to borrow two oxygen probes and meassure the actual oxygen levels during night and day.

Sincerely Lasse

You have many degrees in your thermometer. Thank you for bringing light to the discussion.

In intense aquaculture, oxygen is the number one consumer of energy. In some cases, pure oxygen is injected into flow venturi nozzles to meet BOD of water.

As a young airman in 1966, one of my job responsibilities was to bring liquid oxygen to aircraft on the flight line. The best cure for a hangover was to breath 100% oxygen. It was the perfect thing to clear the brain.

 

[MnFish1]

I have a 32 year old mature tank. Which I suspect only proves that I'm persistent and old.

Truth is not relative. Perception of the truth is relative. Opinions are relative.

Truth is Truth.

If the idea is discussion here - I have to say - you dont seem to want to do that. The goal I thought was for everyone to learn here. One thing I can say after reading 95 pages is here 'Truth is definitely relative'.

Just for example you say 'you have a 32 year old mature tank'. Ok - so that should be considered a 'true' statement. But - in reality - what is a 'mature tank'? What does that mean. The truth (again only my opinion) is that you have a 32 year old tank. The relativity comes in when you use mature without defining it.

I have learned lots of things from @Paul B and atoll. I have learned some things from you - certainly much more research than I ever thought I would do concerning various types of farmed shrimp.

 

[atoll]

You have many degrees in your thermometer. Thank you for bringing light to the discussion.

In intense aquaculture, oxygen is the number one consumer of energy. In some cases, pure oxygen is injected into flow venturi nozzles to meet BOD of water.

As a young airman in 1966, one of my job responsibilities was to bring liquid oxygen to aircraft on the flight line. The best cure for a hangover was to breath 100% oxygen. It was the perfect thing to clear the brain.

I have introduced Oxydator's to many people. I even have a facebook group dedicated to them Aquarium Oxydator User Group. I first used Oxydators around 30 years ago after discovering Discus breeders were using them. So why not in salt water aquaria. Myself and a friend experimented with them using different % of peroxide and numbers of catlaysts. We soon discovered the benefits they brought to our tanks and animals. Untill then we could gind no information on their use in marine aquaria so we proceeded with caution. I have used Oxydator's to bring round newly introduced fish that were struggling mainly through stress and low oxygen often lying on their side with rappid gill movement. The introduction of an Oxydator made all the difference. Some of these fish would have recovered but not as fast or as complete without the Oxydator of that I am certain.

 

[Scott Campbell]

If the idea is discussion here - I have to say - you dont seem to want to do that. The goal I thought was for everyone to learn here. One thing I can say after reading 95 pages is here 'Truth is definitely relative'.

Just for example you say 'you have a 32 year old mature tank'. Ok - so that should be considered a 'true' statement. But - in reality - what is a 'mature tank'? What does that mean. The truth (again only my opinion) is that you have a 32 year old tank. The relativity comes in when you use mature without defining it.

I have learned lots of things from @Paul B and atoll. I have learned some things from you - certainly much more research than I ever thought I would do concerning various types of farmed shrimp.

For what it is worth - my tank is the 32 year old tank. I think Subsea's is 25 years old. I used his "mature tank" phrasing only to make a point that owning a tank for a lot of years doesn't really prove anything - except advanced age and stubbornness.

 

[Subsea]

You make an excellent point. Anything can be taken to extremes. Does your kid benefit from being in daycare, catching a lot of "germies" and building up a strong immune response, as opposed to children who never leave the house and bathe in hand sanitizer until they're dropped off into the cesspool of Kindergarten? I'd imagine so. Still, I'm not jumping on a plan to Zaire the next time there's a minor ebola outbreak to make sure my child has the chance to fight it off.

I'm really, really debating this concept myself, as I'm filling my tank as we speak. Strongly considering 5 gal of natural, unfiltered seawater as well, to, hopefully, start off with a good biome. I only know what I see on the internet though. The best I can figure is that there's no perfect solution. My hypothesis is that, if you're going to keep a tank and have periodic livestock additions, it might be a matter of time either way. A matter of time until something nasty gets through QT and devastates you DT, or a matter of time until allowing and pursuing diversity and immunity ends up in an "ebola" pathegen being introduced that easily kills even the healthiest, most resilient speciment. The question is, which timeline is longer

Outstanding summation! Kudos to you.

The pragmatic point here is what are the cost in time & resources for the implementation of each form of TLC.

As a Laissez Faire reefkeeper, I spend < 2 hrs per week maintenance on both of my display tanks. In my two display tanks, I have many inexpensive reef fish that I enjoy watching. The fish are the distribution system for nutrients to biofiter.

Probably my best definition of natural filtration is a holobiont that is holistic and not just interconnected, but interdependent on each part for its health. On the micro level, food webs use inorganic & organic nutrients to grow live food of differet sizes to feed differrent hugry mouths.

 

[MnFish1]

For what it is worth - my tank is the 32 year old tank. I think Subsea's is 25 years old. I used his "mature tank" phrasing only to make a point that owning a tank for a lot of years doesn't really prove anything - except advanced age and stubbornness.

I know the quote system was messed up

 

[Subsea]

I have introduced Oxydator's to many people. I even have a facebook group dedicated to them Aquarium Oxydator User Group. I first used Oxydators around 30 years ago after discovering Discus breeders were using them. So why not in salt water aquaria. Myself and a friend experimented with them using different % of peroxide and numbers of catlaysts. We soon discovered the benefits they brought to our tanks and animals. Untill then we could gind no information on their use in marine aquaria so we proceeded with caution. I have used Oxydator's to bring round newly introduced fish that were struggling mainly through stress and low oxygen often lying on their side with rappid gill movement. The introduction of an Oxydator made all the difference. Some of these fish would have recovered but not as fast or as complete without the Oxydator of that I am certain.

I used the below to replace chlorine in swimming pool upkeep. It was more expensive than chlorine agents. The differrence for the swimmers was noticeably. Nobody that I know enjoys a whiff of chlorine skin. On the other hand, with peroxide treatment in the pool water, my skin tingled.




Fill your pool with water. You can use water from the hose that is chlorinated. Chlorine & hydrogen peroxide can mix together just fine. To start treatment, shock your poolwith hydrogen peroxide by adding 250 ml (1 cup) of hydrogen peroxide for every 1000 liters (250 gallons) of water.

 

[BeejReef]

View attachment 976596 View attachment 976598

Outstanding summation! Kudos to you.

The pragmatic point here is what are the cost in time & resources for the implementation of each form of TLC.

As a Laissez Faire reefkeeper, I spend < 2 hrs per week maintenance on both of my display tanks. In my two display tanks, I have many inexpensive reef fish that I enjoy watching. The fish are the distribution system for nutrients to biofiter.

Probably my best definition of natural filtration is a holobiont that is holistic and not just interconnected, but interdependent on each part for its health. On the micro level, food webs use inorganic & organic nutrients to grow live food of differet sizes to feed differrent hugry mouths.

It really is fascinating. It's probably the part that interests me more than the actual corals or fish. What do we focus on and what do we use proxies for? I can't install an arid desert for windblown trace elements or magma vents. Do we even understand all the natural processes we're trying to emulate... lol. Rivers = ATO, wave action and seafoam = skimmer? As my hero Mr. Spock would say, fascinating.

 

[sde1500]

I used the below to replace chlorine in swimming pool upkeep. It was more expensive than chlorine agents. The differrence for the swimmers was noticeably. Nobody that I know enjoys a whiff of chlorine skin. On the other hand, with peroxide treatment in the pool water, my skin tingled.




Fill your pool with water. You can use water from the hose that is chlorinated. Chlorine & hydrogen peroxide can mix together just fine. To start treatment, shock your poolwith hydrogen peroxide by adding 250 ml (1 cup) of hydrogen peroxide for every 1000 liters (250 gallons) of water.

I'll stick to saltwater pools

 

[Subsea]

I'll stick to saltwater pools

Unless it’s reed grasses and seaweed, commercial salt water pools use copper. The salt water allows electrical conductivity to transfer copper from anodes into the water.


PS: or did you mean reef tank?

 

[Mortie31]

Just for interest @Subsea , I also use an oxydator and measure DO levels this is the last weeks levels (the scale on vertical axis is incorrect please divide values by 10) so my average is 7 mg/l

 

[sde1500]

Here ya go.
View attachment 975204View attachment 975207

Intriguing, is there a post around that you could direct one to, to learn a bit more about this?

 

[sde1500]

Unless it’s reed grasses and seaweed, commercial salt water pools use copper. The salt water allows electrical conductivity to transfer copper from anodes into the water.


PS: or did you mean reef tank?

Oh yea I meant swimming

 

[atoll]

Intriguing, is there a post around that you could direct one to, to learn a bit more about this?

There is a thread running on here and I have a facebook group with much more info. Aquarium Oxydator User Group.