The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Subsea]

Here ya go.
View attachment 975204View attachment 975207

@Lasse
Would this work with your anaerobic digester?

I love contracptions that help the “little people”. If the intank janitors are insufficient for the job, then humans must intervene as the “big janitors”.

@atoll
I have always respected your methods of reef husbandry, particularly when it comes to adding oxygen to the water. Because I have large systems and seek economy of scale, I use cascading waterfalls for gas exchange and oxygen enrichment.

As a munincipal waste water superintendent, we adopted German technology from Schroeder. While making site visits at plants in operation, one municipal waste water plant put accent lighting at a staircase of final treatment to degas the water and supply good PR to the local community.

I am told, he even drank the discharge water from the plant to prove his conviction as final stage of QC & QA.

I eat seaweed straight from my tanks.
A Cajun Aggie

 

[atoll]

@Lasse
Would this work with your anaerobic digester?

I love contracptions that help the “little people”. If the intank janitors are insufficient for the job, then humans must intervene as the “big janitors”.

@atoll
I have always respected your methods of reef husbandry, particularly when it comes to adding oxygen to the water. Because I have large systems and seek economy of scale, I use cascading waterfalls for gas exchange and oxygen enrichment.

As a munincipal waste water superintendent, we adopted German technology from Schroeder. While making site visits at plants in operation, one municipal waste water plant put accent lighting at a staircase of final treatment to degas the water and supply good PR to the local community.

I am told, he even drank the discharge water from the plant to prove his conviction as final stage of QC & QA.

I eat seaweed straight from my tanks.
A Cajun Aggie

Oxydator's are a german invention of course and I have also eaten Caulerpa which was fried in a wok at a local Chinese restaurant a awhile back much to the cooks there amusement.

 

[Lasse]

@Lasse
Would this work with your anaerobic digester?

I love contracptions that help the “little people”. If the intank janitors are insufficient for the job, then humans must intervene as the “big janitors”.

@atoll
I have always respected your methods of reef husbandry, particularly when it comes to adding oxygen to the water. Because I have large systems and seek economy of scale, I use cascading waterfalls for gas exchange and oxygen enrichment.

As a munincipal waste water superintendent, we adopted German technology from Schroeder. While making site visits at plants in operation, one municipal waste water plant put accent lighting at a staircase of final treatment to degas the water and supply good PR to the local community.

I am told, he even drank the discharge water from the plant to prove his conviction as final stage of QC & QA.

I eat seaweed straight from my tanks.
A Cajun Aggie

I use an oxydator A placed in my return chamber. Water have to through the display in order to reach my RFDSB (ReversedFlowDeepSandBed) During daytime - the oxygen from the photosynthesis would be a greater problem than the oxydator - but I have not notice anything negative things. In the future - I plan to borrow two oxygen probes and meassure the actual oxygen levels during night and day.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scott Campbell]

@soflmuddin

Touchdown for Natural Filtration. Stress kills 400% more fish than all pathogens combined.

The CEO of the largest shrimp farm in North America says that shrimp exposed to all pathogens increased production 400% when survival rates increased from 20% to 80%.

Robin Pearl, Chief Executive Officer, received his Bachelor’s degree in Management from Florida Atlantic University. During his college days, he started a vending company that he sold and used proceeds to start OceanBoy Farms (OBF), a large shrimp farm in central Florida that’s no longer in business. After building OBF into the largest USA shrimp farm and largest organic shrimp farm in the world, he left and started several other companies, including PurigeN98, a nitrogen-tire-inflation-equipment manufacturer that he built into the USA’s largest supplier of these systems for the automotive industry. He subsequently started an energy monitoring company that combined low-cost hardware with an online management solution that allows individuals and companies to better manage and reduce their energy usage.



Video: For a five-minute of American Mariculture’s farm that shows its construction, greenhouses, equipment, labs, interiors, exteriors and on-site processing plant, Click Here.



Information: Robin Pearl, American Mariculture, Inc., 9703 Stringfellow Road, St. James City, Florida 33956, USA (phone 239-260-4720, email [email protected], webpage http://www.sunshrimp.com/index_files/contact.htm).



Source: iCrowdNewswire. American Mariculture. May 27, 2015.

Subsea

I don't think there is any doubt you can increase disease resistance through controlled breeding and deliberate exposure to disease over multiple generations . Start with 100,000 shrimp, expose them to every known disease, 95,000 of the shrimp die from disease, the remaining survivors reproduce, repeat the process for several generations and you will certainly end up with some crazy tough butt shrimp. If these super shrimp are your breeding stock, then that is bound to increase yields. But how does any of that apply to caring for a single fish? Exposing a hobbyist fish tank to "all known pathogens" seems a completely insane idea to me. Exposure to fatal diseases may help the human race become more disease resistant 10 or 15 generations down the road - but in the here and now I'm not going to deliberately expose my son to all known pathogens. So why would I expose my melanurus wrasse to all known pathogens? The shrimp farm example just doesn't seem particularly relevant in my opinion.

Scott

 

[Subsea]

Subsea

I don't think there is any doubt you can increase disease resistance through controlled breeding and deliberate exposure to disease over multiple generations . Start with 100,000 shrimp, expose them to every known disease, 95,000 of the shrimp die from disease, the remaining survivors reproduce, repeat the process for several generations and you will certainly end up with some crazy tough *** shrimp. If these super shrimp are your breeding stock, then that is bound to increase yields. But how does any of that apply to caring for a single fish? Exposing a hobbyist fish tank to "all known pathogens" seems a completely insane idea to me. Exposure to fatal diseases may help the human race become more disease resistant 10 or 15 generations down the road - but in the here and now I'm not going to deliberately expose my son to all known pathogens. So why would I expose my melanurus wrasse to all known pathogens? The shrimp farm example just doesn't seem particularly relevant in my opinion.

Scott

It’s as relevant as my 25 year mature tank. It’s as relevant as Paul’s 48 year old tank. Neither one of us quarantine.

Relevant is in the eye of the beholder. Viva la difference!

 

[Subsea]

View attachment 976172


It’s as relevant as my 25 year mature tank. It’s as relevant as Paul’s 48 year old tank. Neither one of us quarantine.

Relevant is in the eye of the beholder. Just like opinions. Viva la difference.

 

[Subsea]

Does anyone know if oxydators have any adverse affects on microfauna or macroalgae? Don’t really have a reason that they would, just wondering.

Any adverse effects?

If you are Cynobacteria, then oxydators have adverse effects.

Anything that increases gas exchange at the air water interface is good in a reef tank. Considering that oxygen, nitrogen and carbon dioxide are in Dynamic Equilibrium between water & air, I consider oxygen the heart of biofilter. If oxygen is the heart than bacteria are the blood that pump carbon up thru the food chain.

Bacteria that live in the absence of oxygen are bad boys. Anaerobic chemistry is destructive in nature. In municipal waste water treatment, anaerobic digester is the final process of inert minerals.

https://mazzei.net/sites/default/files/files/Oxygen Requirement Calculation Sheet_2013-08-22.pdf

This is another toy that I have used in reef tanks as well as waste water treatment plants.

@Paul B
Sometimes when I begin to take myself too serious, I remember to laugh at myself. So I will exit with humor.

During my 35 years in offshore drilling, I left twice to try other vocations. The first time was because I refused to go offshore Nigeria, where pirates were real. So, instead of floating on “Blue Water”,
I stirred “brown water” at an activated sluge municipal waste water plant. As I was the Plant Superintendent, I needed certificates to establish professionalism & stature. As I seek to excell, I took the highest test and am a Certified Class 5 Operator that qualifies me to be a consultant to train people to stir S.H.I.T.

 

[atoll]

Oxydator's well the ones we use do not directly aid gas exchange EG there is no direct affect on CO2 and VO2 won't reduce employing Oxydator's. Degassing absorption or the take up of CO2 by algae being the ways to go.

 

[Lasse]

Subsea

I don't think there is any doubt you can increase disease resistance through controlled breeding and deliberate exposure to disease over multiple generations . Start with 100,000 shrimp, expose them to every known disease, 95,000 of the shrimp die from disease, the remaining survivors reproduce, repeat the process for several generations and you will certainly end up with some crazy tough *** shrimp. If these super shrimp are your breeding stock, then that is bound to increase yields. But how does any of that apply to caring for a single fish? Exposing a hobbyist fish tank to "all known pathogens" seems a completely insane idea to me. Exposure to fatal diseases may help the human race become more disease resistant 10 or 15 generations down the road - but in the here and now I'm not going to deliberately expose my son to all known pathogens. So why would I expose my melanurus wrasse to all known pathogens? The shrimp farm example just doesn't seem particularly relevant in my opinion.

Scott

You are talking about evolution – we are talking about the wonderful short-term solution that the evolution has given us – the adjustable and specific defence system – the acquired immunity. It is the ultimate defence system both for us and fishes. However – it needs a prior contact with the pathogen in order to be active. The system read the pathogen and start to develop specific antibodies just for that pathogen.

Moreover – fish lives where bacteria and other microorganisms evolved – water. Therefore – because of time – fishes have evolved very effective defence systems that is not specific to certain pathogens. These systems are very effective in their environment, but they probably need a lot of energy in order to work in an effective way. Stress is the physical response of concentrate everything on a single task – the task that´s seems to be a matter of dead or life. A stress response often shouts off other systems, hence lower the effectiveness of the unspecific defence system – or a prolonged stress make the organism not to react if there is pathogens in the body/suppress them with hormones. When the stress just stops – illness comes.

Once my wife has a very stressful work. Here in Sweden we have 5 weeks payed vacation every year with at least 3 weeks in the summertime. If we plan to travel somewhere during the vacation – she either had to start her vacation 3 days before me, or we have to wait at least 3 days before we could travel – reason – she got ill (often a cold) the first day on the vacation when the stress from here work just disappear. This was year after year.

It is interesting that you take up the evolution and how time can change our genes because this mechanism is an important factor why we can´t continue with the way we handle the problem with many pathogens today – not all but must of them.

IMO – the statement that evolution is time depended is wrong and lead us into wrong thinking.

As normal – I just try to explain this in an easy way – experts that reads this maybe not agree in everything. However – here we go.

It is time depended in one way but not the way we think. It is depended of the rate of the reproductive cycle. In the start of every reproduction cycle – there is a normal rate of gene mutations. During the life cycle – these mutations is tested in reality. If they are a disadvantage during the actual environment – the organism dies – the genes disappear from the organism’s genepool if this happens before the reproduction/dividing. If the mutation does not matter during the actual environment – the mutation will be in the future genepool – if the environment will change during the life cycle – the genepool will be tested again and maybe give another answer.

This means – human will put a changed genepool out at the market after a lot of time and not so many. Let us say that we take a ticket in the gene lottery 1-5 times during our lifetime (70 years)

Now we get back to the microorganisms – the most potent pathogens often have a very fast reproduction/dividing. Virus can have a long “life cycle” but when it is wakening up (in a cell) the reproduction is fast, very fast. The most virulent pathogens maybe take a ticket in the gene lottery every 10 to 15 minutes.

I do not need to say whom will have the best chance for a jackpot

This means that if we invent a method to change the actual organism’s environment in order to kill it – and if it has short reproduction cycle – it will have another resistant genepool rather soon if it is exposed to often. It is not a question if – it is a question of when. We will not be able to extinct a pathogen from the world with external treatment – but we can extinct it from the actual host if we use the method in the right way. Just Google antibiotics and resistant germs - you will get a lot of examples.


However – someone will say – we have extinct some diseases (at least in some geographical areas)

In Sweden today – the measles regards to be extinct. When I grow up – it was rather common, and I had it when I was a child. The measles is the single most deadly illness in the world with a normal death rate of 0.2 % but can be as high as 10%.

In which way have we succeeded to defeat this deadly illness? - The answer to this is the specific adapted immune system. With help of vaccine have we activate a measles specific immune defence.

We do get in measles in Sweden now and then but the vaccine programme protect our children (we have a single payer health system with free vaccination of many child diseases)

What I want to say is that the specific immune system is very important – for us and also for fish even if they seem not so depended as we – but in order to work – it has to be activated of small amount of the pathogen in question.

What´s happen with the specific immune system if we do not tease it much enough? Nowadays – the hygiene hypothesis connected to allergy get increases confidence.

I´m not saying that you should expose your son for diseases, but you should not be afraid to expose him for normal conditions with normal occurrences of pathogens. And please do not use antibacterial products and antibiotics just in case. As you understand I am very much against prophylactic methods – especially with our fishes that normally are adapted to live in a soup of microorganisms. We have a sentence in Swedish that says “vårda ihjäl” – with Google it could be translated into “cherish to death” In Swedish it stands for caring so much that it kill instead

If not broken – do not fix it. The methods we know works should be used only if the natural system does not fix it – otherwise we will be empty in our toolbox when we need it the most

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I stirred “brown water” at an activated sluge municipal waste water plant. As I was the Plant Superintendent, I needed certificates to establish professionalism & stature. As I seek to excell, I took the highest test and am a Certified Class 5 Operator that qualifies me to be a consultant to train people to stir S.H.I.T.

I work 8 years as a S.H.I.T. stirrer And I was seldom sick in microbial caused illness

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

Lasse, in the UK and I suspect many other countries our saying is "killing with kindness" I believe many aquarists do just that and have overly clean aquariums.
If you waft the sand on a coral reef with your hand you will get a cloud much of which is detritus. If you do the same to the sand on the bottom of my aquarium you will get the same. I employ no mechanical filtration unless you wish to call a skimmer such. I have never been convinced detritus is the enemy it is made out to be. There is lots of living things that lurk in my sand and detritus and I have seen all manner of life in my sand inc microscopic life and yes I do have a microscope. All this microscopic life I consider good for my tank and inhabitants in fact probably necessary for a healthy system. Does this microscopic fauna contribute to the disease resistance of my animals I can't say for certain but I suspect it's in the chain in some way.

 

[Lasse]

With the sand - I have one rule - do not tuch! I have animals that do that. Microfauna in sand and it stones - stability.

I believe in the full bus theory. If the bus is total occupied by friendly travellers – the bad ones that try to enter will be kicked out directly - if it is empty chairs - disaster

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Subsea]

With the sand - I have one rule - do not tuch! I have animals that do that. Microfauna in sand and it stones - stability.

I believe in the full bus theory. If the bus is total occupied by friendly travellers – the bad ones that try to enter will be kicked out directly - if it is empty chairs - disaster

Sincerely Lasse

I have never heard “full bus” theory. I like it. As a Master Gardner, I weed out undesirables so that desirables reign. When the Garden is new, there are many weeds.

 

[Subsea]

Oxydator's well the ones we use do not directly aid gas exchange EG there is no direct affect on CO2 and VO2 won't reduce employing Oxydator's. Degassing absorption or the take up of CO2 by algae being the ways to go.

Please explain how oxydators work in a reef tank. I am familiar with aireration devices in large ponds, how is it differrent?

I have a differrent take on carbon dioxide in a reef tank. Three scientist in academia and long time reef hobbiest all told me the same thing. Carbon dioxide grows coral and fish.

@Dana Riddle said it best with his opening statement on Advanced Aquaria 6 part series on coral nutrition, “Photosynthesis connects the inorganic with the organic world.” He further described how partial pressure of gas and solubility of gas move it back and forth in Dynamic Equilibrium. Because I never bothered with SPS and their burden on alkalinity management these buffering system combined with aroggonite sandbeds and limewater for makeup has worked well for me.

 

[atoll]

Please explain how oxydators work in a reef tank. I am familiar with aireration devices in large ponds, how is it differrent?

There is a thread on here about Oxydator's you might wish to check out with lots of info. However, simply put it uses hydrogen peroxide which is broken down into activated O2 and water via catlaysts and slowly released. No electricity, controller, bubbler etc used.

 

[Subsea]

There is a thread on here about Oxydator's you might wish to check out with lots of info. However, simply put it uses hydrogen peroxide which is broken down into activated O2 and water via catlaysts and slowly released. No electricity, controller, bubbler etc used.

Eureka! No wonder you guys have such lively reefs that are high on oxygen.

As a somewhat similar analogy, I orally injest small amounts of hydrogen peroxide each day. Just started with very low doses. The doctors at the VA are very skeptical about me doing this. I trust my pretty witch doctor.

 

[Paul B]

There is an interesting article in this months Discover Magazine (March 2019) about Happiness, and stress.
The article states that we evolved to be able to borrow energy when for instance we are being chased by a Saber toothed Tiger, or a Liberal.
But there are not to many places we can borrow energy from. We can't take it from the brain ( the largest user of energy) because the brain uses the same amount of energy when we are sleeping as when we are Moon Walking and it needs that amount of energy constantly. We also can't borrow it from our muscles because as we are running away we need all the muscle energy as we can get.

So we borrow it from our immune system. Our immune system has a large reserve of energy because it needs it if we get sick or stressed because maybe we lost our nose ring. Much of the time our immune system is cruising along just waiting for some infection to come along so it can jump on it.

But stress, like running from that tiger, shark, Tiger Shark, Royal Grammar or not finding the food we are used to eating keeps borrowing energy from the immune system depleting it's reserves so it can't function when it is needed.
Therefore, Stress is the biggest problem and the reason for disease forums.

This is the cause of much, or most of the problems in our tanks. Stress comes from a tank to clean, a tank with not enough hiding places, bullying, Improper food, RAP music, an un natural tank, wrong temperature, to small a tank,
"quarintining in a bare tank using drugs" or just using drugs.

Yes, I realize "Discover Magazine" is not a real Scientific publication, but they get these articles from Scientists and researchers not homeless Hardware store owners.

Ref"
Me.

 

[Paul B]

Eureka! No wonder you guys have such lively reefs that are high on oxygen.

When I want more Oxygen, I put one of those little "No Snoring" metal strips on my nose to open it up more.

I orally ingest small amounts of hydrogen peroxide each day.

Is that why your nose hairs are platinum blonde?

 

[Lasse]

or a Liberal

or a conservative nationalist in my case otherwise I agree

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Subsea]

I orally injest small amounts of hydrogen peroxide each day.

Is that why your nose hairs are platinum blonde?

Paul,
Quit making me laugh. My ribs hurt.

In my early offshore experience, I was a mechanic on an old drill ship and bunked with bosun mate and crane operator. Both crane operator and I had full beards. His was white and mine had red hair as precursor to white beard. During those days, Kenny Rogers was very popular as a singer songwriter. Plus he was a millionaire a couple of times over. As men sometimes do, both beards in the room came to the same Eureka Moment. Even though the crane operator had the same white beard as Kenny Rogers, the Super Models flocked to Kenny Rogers. We further pondered on this and realized that, If you got a lot of green, then
“white hair can be blond”.