The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[DSC reef]

Fluconazole is also a medication given for fungal infections in humans.

Isn't erythromycin in chemiclean used as an antibacterial in humans? Used fluconazole in our reef tank with no issues or imbalances noticed.

 

[MnFish1]

Isn't erythromycin in chemiclean used as an antibacterial in humans? Used fluconazole in our reef tank with no issues or imbalances noticed.

Erythromycin is rarely used any more - due to resistance. Usually its Zithromax now. In any case - I am not trying to stir a huge debate up lol - I just gave my opinion. The less chemicals used - the better.

Heresy alert - I also disagree with using multiple antibiotics in QT tanks with no evidence of infection. Mainly because we don't know the effects (long or short) of these medications on healthy fish (Or unhealthy ones) or bacterial resistance patterns.

 

[fishybizzness]

Did my weekly water change with some nsw earlier. Everything looks happy!

 

[DSC reef]

Erythromycin is rarely used any more - due to resistance. Usually its Zithromax now. In any case - I am not trying to stir a huge debate up lol - I just gave my opinion. The less chemicals used - the better.

Heresy alert - I also disagree with using multiple antibiotics in QT tanks with no evidence of infection. Mainly because we don't know the effects (long or short) of these medications on healthy fish (Or unhealthy ones) or bacterial resistance patterns.

No worries. I just got off erythromycin for my eye due to a piece of metal being stuck in it

 

[Frogger]

Erythromycin (Chemiclean) is a gram negative antibiotic. Which means it will kill some of the beneficial bacteria in your tank. Thus throw you balance and biodiversity out of wack.
Again it is a pesticide and should be used as a last resort not first.

Years ago I treated cyano/spirulina (not sure which didn't have microscope at time) with Chemiclean and killed the cyano only to cause a major dino outbreak. After wards I wished I had my cyano back.

I have used it successfully since, however only as a last resort.
I have also used Fluconazole in my tank to effectively control a really bad case of Bryopsis that I had battled with for 10 years.

I feel it is absolutely important to understand cause and effect when treating pests/diseases with pesticides. There will be collateral damage

 

[MnFish1]

No worries. I just got off erythromycin for my eye due to a piece of metal being stuck in it

Was it drops? - Those can be used in much higher concentration.

 

[MnFish1]

Erythromycin (Chemiclean) is a gram negative antibiotic. Which means it will kill some of the beneficial bacteria in your tank. Thus throw you balance and biodiversity out of wack.
Again it is a pesticide and should be used as a last resort not first.

Years ago I treated cyano/spirulina (not sure which didn't have microscope at time) with Chemiclean and killed the cyano only to cause a major dino outbreak. After wards I wished I had my cyano back.

I have used it successfully since, however only as a last resort.
I have also used Fluconazole in my tank to effectively control a really bad case of Bryopsis that I had battled with for 10 years.

I feel it is absolutely important to understand cause and effect when treating pests/diseases with pesticides. There will be collateral damage

Actually - there is no such thing as a 'gram negative antibiotic'. There are gram positive, gram negative bacteria though. Different antibiotics are more effective against gram positives and gram negatives - some are effective against both. Erythromycin tends to be more active against gram positive bacteria and some gram negatives. (Erythromycin is most effective against gram-positive bacteria such as pneumococci, streptococci, and some staphylococci (see Gram's stain ). The antibiotic also has some effect on gram-negative bacteria and some fungi. Erythromycin inhibits protein synthesis in susceptible microorganisms.)

 

[Lasse]

Because this thread is about "the other way to run a reef tank (no quarantine) I think that the last post is on spot what it is about. An observing quarantine - that´s not the main problem for me - but a quarantine with a protocol of prophylactic treatments - that´s a big problem (IMO). Observe - with the word prophylactic I mean chemical treatments just in case of (no evidence of infection)

I will through more gasoline on the fire below and attack the issue from another angle

Note – all doctors, researchers, vets and other persons that are more educated than me in this – I´m total aware that this description below is much simplified but I´m not writing for you – you know this already I´m try to write for the ones that never have heard about these problems in a way that they will have a little understanding of what´s happen when you put a toxic substance in your aquarium

Most fish have a highly developed detoxification system mostly consist of different enzymes of the cytochrome p-450 dependent mixed-function oxidase. MFO is a enzyme system that works like cascades (as an old fashion fountain with different levels) One enzyme attack a compound and break it down to different metabolites (other compounds that have been or are slightly changed building blocks of the original compound) These metabolites will in their turn be changed by other enzymes into new metabolites and so on. The process stops when the original compound is nontoxic or changed in a way that the body can transport it out from the body. This is a normal well working system but there is a problem – some compounds can induce new enzymes - resulting in different metabolites or they can inhibit enzymes in the cascade. The result can be a catastrophe - resulting in a metabolite that can be more toxic than the original compound. When an enzyme is induced – it will sometime still be active against other, more normal compounds, but change their break down pathway – and resulting metabolites

One very well-known inhibiter of one of those enzyme cascades is Antabuse (disulfiram). In one of the enzymatic breakdown stages of alcohol - a compound named acetaldehyde are the resulting metabolite. This metabolite is highly toxic and during normal condition it will be further converted into harmless acetic acid by another enzyme. However – Antabuse will block that enzyme and the toxic form will be unchanged. People that consume both alcohol and Antabuse do not feel very good. There is people that lack the second enzyme too – they can´t drink alcohol at all without being rather sick

Fluconazole and many of the other drugs that we gladly give to our fishes as prophylactic treatment is known inducer of the cytochrome p-450 dependent mixed-function oxidase and some are known inhibitors of parts of the same system. It will differ how different species (and even different individuals) will react when these drugs being metabolized. We can never know the result.

The long-time health of my fishes is a prior goal and therefore I never use these drugs (or the immune suppressor copper) just in case of. I can personally use them when the short time risk is much greater than the long-time risk and that I have an indication of a disease. And I try to avoid substances for humans with the same reasons as MnFish1. (and probably I had not wait 10 years as Frogger did in his fight with bryopsis) But as a standard procedure – no way

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Frogger]

Actually - there is no such thing as a 'gram negative antibiotic

Sorry if I am wrong. I had looked it up months ago and the website I was reading said it was effective against gram negative bacteria. None the less it is effective at killing some bacteria in our tanks.

Thanks Lasse for the clarification at a level that we can understand. It all makes sense.

I waited 10 years because up until I used it there was no chemical control that worked. I was at the point I was about to tear down the tank and bleach everything that wasn't fish/coral and start again.

 

[DSC reef]

Was it drops? - Those can be used in much higher concentration.

It was an ointment. Very fun to apply, lol.

 

[Ocean Lotion]

Curious - Not wanting a debate - what is your opinion about my opinion lol

Not a debate, just my observation with meds and disease is that doctors prescribe antibiotics in too conservative a dose length. This let's bacteria survive the treatment and become resistant. Treatments should beon enough to ensure killing the bacteria off the first time. No chance to build up a resistance.

 

[cmcoker]

Not a debate, just my observation with meds and disease is that doctors prescribe antibiotics in too conservative a dose length. This let's bacteria survive the treatment and become resistant. Treatments should beon enough to ensure killing the bacteria off the first time. No chance to build up a resistance.

I'll counter that argument that most patients dont take the antibiotics for the prescribed period of time causing resistance.
Compliance is what 30% in some studies.

I work at a Veterinary hospital and cant tell you how often we hear phrases such as "leftover antibiotics from last time" and conversations that go
"Fluffy is itching again"
"Did you give him the allergy medicine?"
"Yes, and he got better after 2 days, so I stopped. I didnt think he needed it anymore"
"Did you try starting the allergy medicine again?"
"No..."
"Did you do x or y we recommended?"
"No.."

Its maddening to a degree, but I guess if they want to come pay exam fees all the time, we can say the same things over and over.


Which reminds me, I have antibiotics to go take..

 

[Hermie]

Great Wizened Ones ITT, I ask for your counsel,

Just got 3 sponges, (1 has an isopod which are not yet introduced into my DT. One has a brittle star. And of course there's more microfauna I can't see) I've rinsed them underwater in DT water, and they are now sitting in a bucket w/ some DT water.

It's 1 month since transitioning from brackish to marine and I'm making an educated guess that the ammonia>nitrate cycle is established.

Should I put the sponges in now, or put them in a QT tank? I know there's risks with putting them in now, but the QT tanks I have are either full of cyano or not yet matured to host a sponge...

 

[Paul B]

Of course I would put it in your DT but it is a little early for a sponge. It may starve as they live by filtering bacteria and other microorganisms that won't yet be established in any of your tanks.
If you are going to run a quarantined tank, then you can't put it in now and you need to seek advice from someone who quarantines.
Good luck

 

[soflmuddin]

Ran across this video today........

 

[Subsea]

@soflmuddin

Touchdown for Natural Filtration. Stress kills 400% more fish than all pathogens combined.

The CEO of the largest shrimp farm in North America says that shrimp exposed to all pathogens increased production 400% when survival rates increased from 20% to 80%.

Robin Pearl, Chief Executive Officer, received his Bachelor’s degree in Management from Florida Atlantic University. During his college days, he started a vending company that he sold and used proceeds to start OceanBoy Farms (OBF), a large shrimp farm in central Florida that’s no longer in business. After building OBF into the largest USA shrimp farm and largest organic shrimp farm in the world, he left and started several other companies, including PurigeN98, a nitrogen-tire-inflation-equipment manufacturer that he built into the USA’s largest supplier of these systems for the automotive industry. He subsequently started an energy monitoring company that combined low-cost hardware with an online management solution that allows individuals and companies to better manage and reduce their energy usage.



Video: For a five-minute of American Mariculture’s farm that shows its construction, greenhouses, equipment, labs, interiors, exteriors and on-site processing plant, Click Here.



Information: Robin Pearl, American Mariculture, Inc., 9703 Stringfellow Road, St. James City, Florida 33956, USA (phone 239-260-4720, email [email protected], webpage http://www.sunshrimp.com/index_files/contact.htm).



Source: iCrowdNewswire. American Mariculture. May 27, 2015.

 

[Paul B]

The CEO of the largest shrimp farm in North America says that shrimp exposed to all pathogens increased production 400% when survival rates increased from 20% to 80%.

How come no one believes me?

 

[atoll]

How come no one believes me?

Perhaps they don't want to as it messes up what they have been taught and lead to believe.[emoji848] Just saying.

 

[William Buchanan]

I wouldn’t say no one... I believe there are a least a few that do. [emoji851]

 

[MnFish1]

Ran across this video today........

I stopped looking at this when they compared copper to 'chemotherapy' It is crazy. The analogy might be comparing copper to putting fish in with an antibiotic, etc - ok - that's good - but its nothing compared to having 'chemotherapy'. If you've ever had chemotherapy you'll know what a gross exaggeration this is.

This guy also doesn't argue that much against QT - just not with added medications (I agree with this).

No matter what you think about 'this video' - does anyone else think that a video is much less efficient to get information from than just reading text(ie an article)?

@Paul B I will say - your article was considerably better than this video. (Curious why he didn't comment on his experience with 'brook' - or the times he 'let Mother Nature takes its course'.)

That said - he has a nice fluorescent tank.