Tank Trouble

[Kygo]

Just wanted to see if there was something I might be missing or if anybody had any ideas for things I should do different. Right now I have a standard 29 gallon mostly LPS tank. It's been up and running for a little over a year now and for a while in the beginning things were going pretty well. However over the past 2 months I'm not quite sure what's happened but I've seen some RTN I think is what it's called. It started with some Digi montis. (some background) Not long after I got the frag, I accidentally broke it. But after that, the frag and the piece I broke had actually grown and done okay until about 2 months ago. Signaling to me that my params were good enough to foster growth at least at some point. Fast forward to 2 months ago and they both had started to bleach and really took a turn for the worst. The only change I made was adjusting my black box light, viparspectra, about 2-3 points increased. Then after I deemed they were not going to be able to recover, I removed them. Not long after I started to see tissue receding on an acan lord, favia, and cyphastrea.At this point these all appeared to have stopped receding but they just look rough and it's pretty disheartening not going to lie.

I've always changed the water in the tank every week and a half to 2 weeks at most. I was running a Tunze 9004 for a while but took it off as I wasn't seeing any benefit from it. I removed it maybe 2 months before the Digi started dying but my nitrates weren't affected so I don't think it really mattered.

My params have been steady at around
8.3 dKH
420 cal
1320 mag
2.5ppm No4
Temp 80.5
Salinity 1.025.
I run a hob aquaclear 70
Ai Nero 3
3152 osmolator ato
Blue bucket red sea salt.

I dosed red sea ab+ maybe once or twice a week for a little while but saw no differences. Also did targeted coral feeding maybe once or twice a week but haven't been doing this much anymore.
I try and keep it simple, the only thing I haven't been monitored is po4. I used to have a Hanna but i didn't like it so I got rid of it. However during the time I did have it, I always got steady numbers at around <0.05 I believe.

Maybe like 5-6 months ago i couldn't get my nitrates up and my phosphates were both reading 0 with this other skimmer I had but I took that off and replaced with a smaller tunze 9004.

In addition during this time I've had zoas grow a few new heads, a Duncan grow a new head, an elegance and Frogspawn do well as well as other corals. The RTN was not centralized and seemed to be random because I have my Frogspawn like 5 inches from the acan and digis that were dying. While a favia on the other side of the tank was receding tissue and showing skeleton.

If anyone has any suggestions I'd really appreciate it. It's been tough seeing my tank go through this after all the time, effort, and money put in.

I was thinking of picking up a high end led light but I didn't think that would really make much a difference and wouldn't have caused the digits to bleach and start this snowball. Also considered soft resetting the tank and tearing everything down and move it all to a new tank with the same equipment. Could things have been too clean? Was the change in light enough to cause all this? Did I need to do a large water change after I took out the digis to remove any chemicals they may have left over in the water? Idk.
Oh and the tank is stocked with
1 occelaris
1 royal Gramma
1 trochus snail
2 nassarius snails
1 black margarita snail
1 sexy shrimp
3 hermits (2 small blue legs, 1 bigger red)

Any feedback is appreciated, sorry this post is long, kind of ranting because I have a lot on my mind and don't have any local reefer friends.

 

[Lasse]

2.5ppm No4

No4 does not exist - do you mean NO3 or PO4?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Lasse, No 4 also doesn't exist in my tank.

 

[PeterC99]

How old are RODI filters?

What’s your maintenance schedule? Have you kept to it?

Have you changed any coral/fish foods in last 2 months?

Has anything else changed in your aquarium in the last 2 months?

 

[Kygo]

No4 does not exist - do you mean NO3 or PO4?

Sincerely Lasse

No3, sorry I thought I proofread everything.

 

[Lasse]

OK I thought that , Next question - what are your PO4 readings. Defiency in PO4 for thos coral you have mentioned can cause things like this IME

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Kygo]

How old are RODI filters?

What’s your maintenance schedule? Have you kept to it?

Have you changed any coral/fish foods in last 2 months?

Has anything else changed in your aquarium in the last 2 months?

Fairly new, maybe 6 months old. I use a tds meter to check if it's still good. Water change every week and a half to 2 weeks, yes I've kept it. No changes in food. Just the light setting is what I can remember.

When I first started my tank I would tweak and mess with something everyday it felt like, but after a while I kept reading to keep it simple and let the tank sort itself out and just keep your hands out and that's what I've done. Which is weird to me that everything started happening so negative.

 

[Kygo]

OK I thought that , Next question - what are your PO4 readings. Defiency in PO4 for thos coral you have mentioned can cause things like this IME

Sincerely Lasse

I don't have a po4 tester anymore. I use to use a Hanna and for a while In the beginning I was getting a consistent 0. After upping coral feedings I would get around 0.07-0.05ppm. Then that was constant for a few months and I got rid of my Hanna checker and haven't tested since. I had a feeling this might explain my problems, but I was under the impression po4 usually is inline with No3 readings.

 

[Timfish]

I would be worried about your phosphates also. Just FYI corals have symbiotic diazotrophs that can provide nitrogen but not phospahtes so nitrogen and phosphates don't go hand in hand. You didn't mention how often you feed your fish, fish poop is arguably the best source of nitrogen and phosphorus (and it also carbonates) for corals so frequency is certainly a factor. If you suspect you have a PO4 deficiency it's better to reduce your light intenstiy as the coral's photobiology is disrupted and they are more susceptable to bleaching. Also do not expect every species to respond in the same way.

And to elaborate a little bit more on some of these points:

Feeding corals is a very tricky proposition due to the species specific responses. Not only do corals have specific preferences an individual coral may demonstrate a "goldilocks" response to feeding where too little or too much is worse than nothing. Here's links if you want to read more:

Coral farming: effects of light, water motion and artificial foods

Improved coral cultivation will facilitate the reduction of wild harvesting, reef restoration, preservation of biodiversity, and the use of corals as model experimental organisms. In this study, we examine species-specific responses in growth and

www.academia.edu

Comparing the capacity of five different dietary treatments to optimise growth and nutritional composition in two scleractinian corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve captive coral growth and health. This study evaluated the efficacy of three exogenous diets: Artemia nauplii (ART), a commercially available coral diet (Reef Roids) (RR), and a novel, micro-bound diet (ATF), against...

journals.plos.org

Elucidating an optimal diet for captive Acropora corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve the growth and overall health of captive corals. This study evaluated …

www.sciencedirect.com

Influence of different feeding regimes on the survival, growth, and biochemical composition of Acropora coral recruits

Heterotrophic feeding in newly-settled coral planulae can potentially improve survivorship and accelerate early development in some species; however, an optimal diet to facilitate this does not currently exist. This study evaluated the efficacy of three heterotrophic feeding regimes (enriched...

journals.plos.org

Phosphate deficiency, or maybe more correctly a bad Nitrogen to Phosphorus ratio (N/P), really messes with coral photobiology so here's papers elucidating this problem and providing additional insight to the various types of phosphorus. (Keep in mind we can only test for PO4 or Dissolved Inorganic Phosphorus, DIP.)

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching - Nature Climate Change

Increased dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) concentrations in sea water have been linked to a reduction of the temperature threshold at which corals bleach, however, the mechanism underlying this change is not known. This phenomenon is now explained in terms of increased phosphatase activities...

www.nature.com

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Frontiers | Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the up...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

therichross.com

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

And here's fig. 4 from the above paper on phosphorus metabolism and Fig. 3 from this paper on nitrates and corals

 

[Kygo]

I would be worried about your phosphates also. Just FYI corals have symbiotic diazotrophs that can provide nitrogen but not phospahtes so nitrogen and phosphates don't go hand in hand. You didn't mention how often you feed your fish, fish poop is arguably the best source of nitrogen and phosphorus (and it also carbonates) for corals so frequency is certainly a factor. If you suspect you have a PO4 deficiency it's better to reduce your light intenstiy as the coral's photobiology is disrupted and they are more susceptable to bleaching. Also do not expect every species to respond in the same way.

And to elaborate a little bit more on some of these points:

Feeding corals is a very tricky proposition due to the species specific responses. Not only do corals have specific preferences an individual coral may demonstrate a "goldilocks" response to feeding where too little or too much is worse than nothing. Here's links if you want to read more:

Coral farming: effects of light, water motion and artificial foods

Improved coral cultivation will facilitate the reduction of wild harvesting, reef restoration, preservation of biodiversity, and the use of corals as model experimental organisms. In this study, we examine species-specific responses in growth and

www.academia.edu

Comparing the capacity of five different dietary treatments to optimise growth and nutritional composition in two scleractinian corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve captive coral growth and health. This study evaluated the efficacy of three exogenous diets: Artemia nauplii (ART), a commercially available coral diet (Reef Roids) (RR), and a novel, micro-bound diet (ATF), against...

journals.plos.org

Elucidating an optimal diet for captive Acropora corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve the growth and overall health of captive corals. This study evaluated …

www.sciencedirect.com

Influence of different feeding regimes on the survival, growth, and biochemical composition of Acropora coral recruits

Heterotrophic feeding in newly-settled coral planulae can potentially improve survivorship and accelerate early development in some species; however, an optimal diet to facilitate this does not currently exist. This study evaluated the efficacy of three heterotrophic feeding regimes (enriched...

journals.plos.org

Phosphate deficiency, or maybe more correctly a bad Nitrogen to Phosphorus ratio (N), really messes with coral photobiology so here's papers elucidating this problem and providing additional insight to the various types of phosphorus. (Keep in mind we can only test for PO4 or Dissolved Inorganic Phosphorus, DIP.)

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching - Nature Climate Change

Increased dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) concentrations in sea water have been linked to a reduction of the temperature threshold at which corals bleach, however, the mechanism underlying this change is not known. This phenomenon is now explained in terms of increased phosphatase activities...

www.nature.com

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Frontiers | Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the up...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts

https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ecm.1217?casa_token=ziDzrEEJ8g0AAAAA%3AHnfuGTIntMdqOtx2ij-lnoTh7qVg8VBhYFz98e60zfBEvx5IcIVGhmlpUYmzIJuqUNVm0sG8_0vth6lq

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

2657円まるいち 博多辛子明太子(無着色) 「博多の華」 (ギフト用) 180g Z6572海産物イクラ,タラコ,魚卵 Qoo10]　「博　まるいち　博多辛子明太子(無着色) | therichross.com

therichross.com

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

And here's fig. 4 from the above paper on phosphorus metabolism and Fig. 3 from this paper on nitrates and corals

Highly elaborate answer I very much appreciate. I have some reading on my hands. I feed my fish spectrum once a day, occasionally twice. And about once a week I'll feed mysis with selcon. I now suspect a phosphate deficiency but I'll have to wait a few days until the salifert kit I just ordered, comes in. That's very interesting to know that a phosphate deficiency and too much light can cause bleaching. Thanks so much

 

[Timfish]

You're welcome! Here's another paper just to show how complicated the photobiology of corals is.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

 

[Kygo]

You're welcome! Here's another paper just to show how complicated the photobiology of corals is.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Do you have any recommendations on raising or lowering phosphates if those are my problem? I'd imagine lowering would be achieved by closely monitoring feeding and only feeding what is consumed and removed excess as well as replacing filter floss very often. Then for increasing it would be feeding fish more, feeding coral more, and dosing aminos more frequently?

 

[Lasse]

You can dose KH2PO4 or some of the commercial phosphate preparations available from various companies. Another pathway is to feed with reef roids on a daily base.

Be careful - rising PO4 from a situation with long depletion of PO4 is like the famous bottle of ketchup. First nothing, then nothing, then nothing and after that all, Your sand and rockworks works as a storage for PO4 and if they are total depleted they need to catchup before you can read some leftover in the water column,

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

No3, sorry I thought I proofread everything.

Don't worry, you did better than I do.

 

[Kygo]

You can dose KH2PO4 or some of the commercial phosphate preparations available from various companies. Another pathway is to feed with reef roids on a daily base.

Be careful - rising PO4 from a situation with long depletion of PO4 is like the famous bottle of ketchup. First nothing, then nothing, then nothing and after that all, Your sand and rockworks works as a storage for PO4 and if they are total depleted they need to catchup before you can read some leftover in the water column,

Sincerely Lasse

Cool thanks, I've read dosing phosphate can be a slippery slope and cause serious blooms so I'll consider that if I do decide dosing is necessary.

 

[Lasse]

There is many opinions about dosing phosphate but what i have seen - the most negative have never done it by themself. It is the old thought that PO4 (and NO3) is the cause of algae growth. Yes they are - including the algae in the corals - but the reason for uncontrolled growth of unwanted algae in the DT is lack of grazers on these algae - not the nutrient content itself - IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Timfish]

Do you have any recommendations on raising or lowering phosphates if those are my problem? I'd imagine lowering would be achieved by closely monitoring feeding and only feeding what is consumed and removed excess as well as replacing filter floss very often. Then for increasing it would be feeding fish more, feeding coral more, and dosing aminos more frequently?

Feed your fish more. In additon to the links I've posted above feeding corals can be very tricky. What one coral likes another eschews and a coral may show a "goldilocks" response to feeding and it may take a lot of experimentaiton to find what's "just right"

Coral farming: effects of light, water motion and artificial foods

Improved coral cultivation will facilitate the reduction of wild harvesting, reef restoration, preservation of biodiversity, and the use of corals as model experimental organisms. In this study, we examine species-specific responses in growth and

www.academia.edu

Comparing the capacity of five different dietary treatments to optimise growth and nutritional composition in two scleractinian corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve captive coral growth and health. This study evaluated the efficacy of three exogenous diets: Artemia nauplii (ART), a commercially available coral diet (Reef Roids) (RR), and a novel, micro-bound diet (ATF), against...

journals.plos.org

Elucidating an optimal diet for captive Acropora corals

Developing an optimal heterotrophic feeding regime has the potential to improve the growth and overall health of captive corals. This study evaluated …

www.sciencedirect.com

Influence of different feeding regimes on the survival, growth, and biochemical composition of Acropora coral recruits

Heterotrophic feeding in newly-settled coral planulae can potentially improve survivorship and accelerate early development in some species; however, an optimal diet to facilitate this does not currently exist. This study evaluated the efficacy of three heterotrophic feeding regimes (enriched...

journals.plos.org