Stepper or DC Brushless motor for DYI Continuous feeding pump in calcium reactor?

[enb141]

I'm interested in building a DYI Peristaltic pump for my future DIY Calcium reactor, so after doing some research most peristaltic pumps either use DC Brush motor or stepper but no one seems te be using DC Brushless motors for this application.

There's a reason why nobody is using DC Brushless motors?

If so what kind of stepper / DC brushless motor do you recommend me to use?

 

[Phil D.]

Look at Circuitspecialists.com they have DC stepper motors and controllers.

 

[ostrow]

I'm interested in building a DYI Peristaltic pump for my future DIY Calcium reactor, so after doing some research most peristaltic pumps either use DC Brush motor or stepper but no one seems te be using DC Brushless motors for this application.

There's a reason why nobody is using DC Brushless motors?

If so what kind of stepper / DC brushless motor do you recommend me to use?

Those of us who use the Masterflex peristaltic pumps, many of those models use brushless motors. They are quieter. There's a very long thread on RC that somewhere lists all the models. Not sure how you would good about acquiring just the motor or figuring out what motors the various models use.

 

[ostrow]

One example listed right below your post: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...taltic-pump-3000-new-selling-for-1000.780637/

Again, not sure why to sit this other than for kicks. Maybe you can get a mechanical diagram and find the motor

 

[garbled]

I'm not sure how well the brushless DC motors would work at the slow rates you likely want from a pump like this. Usually the steppers are the go-to, because you can directly control the number of revolutions, and therefore have high precision dosing. The brushless would let you set the speed, but then it's harder to calculate amount dispensed.

 

[92Miata]

Those of us who use the Masterflex peristaltic pumps, many of those models use brushless motors. They are quieter. There's a very long thread on RC that somewhere lists all the models. Not sure how you would good about acquiring just the motor or figuring out what motors the various models use.

Quieter than what? Stepper motors with modern drivers are basically silent at the speeds you're driving a calcium reactor feed. I don't think noise is a big differentiator here. I don't know that the control/precision that steppers give you is needed though - so I'm not sure they offer much benefit.

 

[ostrow]

Quieter than what? Stepper motors with modern drivers are basically silent at the speeds you're driving a calcium reactor feed. I don't think noise is a big differentiator here. I don't know that the control/precision that steppers give you is needed though - so I'm not sure they offer much benefit.

I have had both brushless and with on the Masterflex. The brushless is substantially quieter

As for accuracy, well maybe that's why the Masterflex are so spendy. But you can control the dispensing amounts with ridiculous precision.

 

[92Miata]

I have had both brushless and with on the Masterflex. The brushless is substantially quieter

As for accuracy, well maybe that's why the Masterflex are so spendy. But you can control the dispensing amounts with ridiculous precision.

I don't doubt that the master flex dcs are quieter than the master flex stepper based ones, because knowing medical equipment, they're probably 10 years behind current with the drivers (due to certification and such) - and older drivers - like the A4988 are LOUD.

Modern stepper drivers (like the tmc2209) are silent. If he's DIYing dosing pumps, he should be looking at current tech.

 

[enb141]

Look at Circuitspecialists.com they have DC stepper motors and controllers.

Thanks for the link, I'm looking for a NEMA 17 because this is the one that uses this peristalstic pump


Peristaltic Pump

Those of us who use the Masterflex peristaltic pumps, many of those models use brushless motors. They are quieter. There's a very long thread on RC that somewhere lists all the models. Not sure how you would good about acquiring just the motor or figuring out what motors the various models use.

That would be cool to know that information, amps, RPMs, voltage, etc.

One example listed right below your post: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...taltic-pump-3000-new-selling-for-1000.780637/

Again, not sure why to sit this other than for kicks. Maybe you can get a mechanical diagram and find the motor

Looks good so as I mentioned the guy above, what are the motor specs from that one?

I'm not sure how well the brushless DC motors would work at the slow rates you likely want from a pump like this. Usually the steppers are the go-to, because you can directly control the number of revolutions, and therefore have high precision dosing. The brushless would let you set the speed, but then it's harder to calculate amount dispensed.

As far as I know at low revolutions steppers also have a problem losing where they are, the problem increases if you use microstepping.

I have had both brushless and with on the Masterflex. The brushless is substantially quieter

As for accuracy, well maybe that's why the Masterflex are so spendy. But you can control the dispensing amounts with ridiculous precision.

Are you comparing brushless with brush motors or bruless with steppers?

How do they work on low RPMs?

 

[enb141]

I don't doubt that the master flex dcs are quieter than the master flex stepper based ones, because knowing medical equipment, they're probably 10 years behind current with the drivers (due to certification and such) - and older drivers - like the A4988 are LOUD.

Modern stepper drivers (like the tmc2209) are silent. If he's DIYing dosing pumps, he should be looking at current tech.

Yeah current tech but not overpriced high-end tech, so probably a generation before the actual one that is not that expensive or a new generation that has a decent price.

 

[ostrow]

Thanks for the link, I'm looking for a NEMA 17 because this is the one that uses this peristalstic pump


Peristaltic Pump



That would be cool to know that information, amps, RPMs, voltage, etc.



Looks good so as I mentioned the guy above, what are the motor specs from that one?



As far as I know at low revolutions steppers also have a problem losing where they are, the problem increases if you use microstepping.



Are you comparing brushless with brush motors or bruless with steppers?

How do they work on low RPMs?

Brushless with brush. My only point is people use pumps with brushless motors.

These Masterflex, they work great on their entire range of rpms. Each model is different (10-600, 100-600, etc).

 

[enb141]

Brushless with brush. My only point is people use pumps with brushless motors.

These Masterflex, they work great on their entire range of rpms. Each model is different (10-600, 100-600, etc).

DC Brushless motors

From that link, the lower the RPM you will need a gearbox, so my question is, do DC Brushless motors with low RPM exist without the needs of a Gearbox?

The problem that I see with a gearbox is that probably won't fit the Peristaltic Pump that I'm looking to use.

 

[92Miata]

Yeah current tech but not overpriced high-end tech, so probably a generation before the actual one that is not that expensive or a new generation that has a decent price.

Old a4988 stepper drivers are about a buck a piece. Tmc2208s are about $3 a piece. Tmc2209s are about $6 a piece.

The upgrade to the 2208s is definitely worth it. The 2209s are more efficient I believe, but wasn't worth it to me. The 2208s are silent.


As regards steppers and losing steps, it's more that they can lose fractional steps when they lose power - but you'll find that in our use cases there's not enough pressure for the fluid to push the rollers backward, and when a single revolution of the pump head is 200 steps, losing half a step really doesn't matter.


Honestly - with a dosing pump to feed a calcium reactor - it probably doesnt matter whether you use steppers or dc motors - you don't need the precision steppers offer. What you need to make sure is that the motor is capable of running all day.

Dc brushless may be more efficient also.

 

[enb141]

Old a4988 stepper drivers are about a buck a piece. Tmc2208s are about $3 a piece. Tmc2209s are about $6 a piece.

The upgrade to the 2208s is definitely worth it. The 2209s are more efficient I believe, but wasn't worth it to me. The 2208s are silent.


As regards steppers and losing steps, it's more that they can lose fractional steps when they lose power - but you'll find that in our use cases there's not enough pressure for the fluid to push the rollers backward, and when a single revolution of the pump head is 200 steps, losing half a step really doesn't matter.


Honestly - with a dosing pump to feed a calcium reactor - it probably doesnt matter whether you use steppers or dc motors - you don't need the precision steppers offer. What you need to make sure is that the motor is capable of running all day.

Dc brushless may be more efficient also.

I'm thinking to use MPS MP6500 driver like this one Stepper Controller or this Stepper Controller

According to this link:

Choosing the Right Motor for Your OEM Pump Solution

Compare types of motors to understand which are best for your needs

www.masterflex.com

Steppers are bad for continuous use.

 

[Borat]

I'm thinking to use MPS MP6500 driver like this one Stepper Controller or this Stepper Controller

According to this link:

Choosing the Right Motor for Your OEM Pump Solution

Compare types of motors to understand which are best for your needs

www.masterflex.com

Steppers are bad for continuous use.

Steppers are great - especially if they are made by Kazakistan!

Watch my new thread!

DIY Peristaltic Pump: Cultural Teachings of Glorious Nation of Kazakistan

www.reef2reef.com

 

[enb141]

Now back to the topic, what amount of RPM should I be looking for either Stepper or DC brushless motor?

Does it matter or any Nema 17 should be fine?

 

[Borat]

Now back to the topic, what amount of RPM should I be looking for either Stepper or DC brushless motor?

Does it matter or any Nema 17 should be fine?

Ok dude, it all depends on your situation:
- with Nema 17 peristaltic pump the approximate cap on your flow rate would be about 150ml/min (yes, you can make peristaltic pump rotate even faster - but it will start to stall due loss of torque at high RPM)
- let's say that your tank is 400L total volume, your daily DKH consumption is 1DKH/day and your tank is run at 10DKH
- let's assume that your CaRx effluent is 40DKH

Then dosing 1ml/min would add 1.44L/day (60*24/1000) of CaRx effluent and would raise DKH by approximately 0.1 (tank effluent is 10 and CarX effluent is 40, you need to use difference between effluents, i.e. 40-10= 30DKH as "effective DKH addition"). So based on assumed DKH consumption (1DKH/day) you would need to dose about 10ml/min. Thus would pump only needs to work a 4 seconds each minute (and rest for the remaining 56 seconds), at 150ml/min maximum speed.

You can of course make your peristaltic pump rotate continuously (but very slowly in the example above it would be about 1 rotation each 4 seconds) - but it would be a waste of electricity usage for such pump. Peristaltic pumps can run continuously - you just need to make sure there is active cooling in the pump, such a small PC Fan.

My DIY pump has 4 speed settings and I run it at lowest speed setting (about 40ml/min) - it still only works about a third of a minute at a time.

 

[Borat]

.. and if you have a 2000L tank with 5DKH/day consumption, forget about Nema 17.. You would need Nema 23, different peristaltic pump head and larger diameter tubing to achieve the needed flow rate.

 

[enb141]

Mi tank is 75 gallons (about 340 litters) so what about using a a Nema 17 with gears?

Should they be used as suck water from the effluent to the refugium or pump water from refugium to the Calcium reactor chamber?

 

[Borat]

Mi tank is 75 gallons (about 340 litters) so what about using a a Nema 17 with gears?

Should they be used as suck water from the effluent to the refugium or pump water from refugium to the Calcium reactor chamber?

Answer - no, you don't need gears.

Gears are typically used to either change the rotational speed and/or to change the amount of torque.

Stepper motor:
- an be run as slow (or as fast) as you want (there is some speed cap that applies though), so you can control speed from program
- Nema motors have very high torque at (relatively) low speeds - the amount of torque is more than enough to move the pump head