Skimmerless Tank Advice

[TanksJB]

Tank: 140 gallons with 40 gallon sump
I plan on a low bio load reef tank with lots of rock and mixed coral. My fish load will be light with reef safe peaceful fish. I don't plan on fish being the main focus but the reef. I would like copepods and bacteria to do most of the work in filtration but I will add and do what I have to do to maintain the corals and diversity of life.

Right now I question the need for a skimmer with what I want to do because I want a more natural approach, if that is possible. This will be an experiment and may not be successful, and I am willing to fail. What I would like to ask this forum is what advice and links you could direct me to that would be most helpful. I just know someone has already tried this before with success so Tanks in advance for any response and helpful links. TanksJB

 

[Subsea]

Tank: 140 gallons with 40 gallon sump
I plan on a low bio load reef tank with lots of rock and mixed coral. My fish load will be light with reef safe peaceful fish. I don't plan on fish being the main focus but the reef. I would like copepods and bacteria to do most of the work in filtration but I will add and do what I have to do to maintain the corals and diversity of life.

Right now I question the need for a skimmer with what I want to do because I want a more natural approach, if that is possible. This will be an experiment and may not be successful, and I am willing to fail. What I would like to ask this forum is what advice and links you could direct me to that would be most helpful. I just know someone has already tried this before with success so Tanks in advance for any response and helpful links. TanksJB

I have been skimmerless > 40 years. In my experience, foam fractionators remove free swimming bacteria, spores, viruses and other stuff that contain DOC and for that matter are food for filter feeders, including coral.

I prefer to recycle that DOC back into photosynthetic organisms.

 

[Subsea]

The most important thing that protein skimmers do is gas exchange, particularly with respect to oxygen when lights off. So a reverse lighting photoperiod on algae filter is a good idea.

Most importantly for oxygen exchange is aggressive circulation at surface of display tank and tumbling water from display to sump.

 

[homer1475]

You can certainly go skimerless, many do without problems.

 

[Subsea]

For your natural reef tank, I suggest fishless for 6 months to allow develop of biodiversity. Bacteria are the beginning.

I suggest you get uncured live rock from the Gulf of Mexico and seed your tank with the “good stuff”. So much more than bacteria.

Gulf Live Rock

gulfliverock.com

[This rock is fully blanketed with colorful coralline algae's, these algae's come in multitudes of fascinating shades of purple, reds, oranges, peaches and yellows. Most rocks contain bryzoans,orange leather sponge,gracilaria algae,halimeda, sea grapes, cluster corals, and cup corals. All of our premium decorative live rocks contain seeded plant life,both macro and micro algae.All pieces are hand collected fresh from our gulf lease site by our diving staff and shipped directly to our customers.We do not use any chemicals in our process. The rocks pictured are for example only. All of our premium decorative live rock is as good or better than the rocks pictured. This is Florida Aquacultured live rock.
All of our live rock comes from our personal Federal Aquaculture Lease site located 10 miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico. All of our rock was planted on the ocean floor in 1994. So you can image how much marine life has grown on it in over the last 15 years. We have live rock in all different sizes and we can custom fit your order. Our premium decorative live rock starts at $5 a pound. We offer wholesale prices on larger volume orders.]

No bacteria in a bottle will provide diversity required for a healthy reef tank.

 

[TanksJB]

The most important thing that protein skimmers do is gas exchange, particularly with respect to oxygen when lights off. So a reverse lighting photoperiod on algae filter is a good idea.

Most importantly for oxygen exchange is aggressive circulation at surface of display tank and tumbling water from display to sump.

I have that in mind. I have a large Trigger sump and plan on having an air stone working when water enters the system. I forgot to mention the tank will be bare bottom with a raised platform for the rock hidden from the viewing window. I decided no sand because of detritus accumulation with strong down flow to kick stuff around and back toward the out flow with socks to catch the big stuff. I plan on active carbon filtration either occasionally or all the time. That is one reason why I need advice just to see what others have done successfully. Thanks.

 

[TanksJB]

You can certainly go skimerless, many do without problems.

I was reading Dr Tim that floating bacteria would be removed by the skimmer and thought I did not want to work against the natural process taking place.

 

[TanksJB]

For your natural reef tank, I suggest fishless for 6 months to allow develop of biodiversity. Bacteria are the beginning.

I suggest you get uncured live rock from the Gulf of Mexico and seed your tank with the “good stuff”. So much more than bacteria.

Gulf Live Rock

gulfliverock.com

[This rock is fully blanketed with colorful coralline algae's, these algae's come in multitudes of fascinating shades of purple, reds, oranges, peaches and yellows. Most rocks contain bryzoans,orange leather sponge,gracilaria algae,halimeda, sea grapes, cluster corals, and cup corals. All of our premium decorative live rocks contain seeded plant life,both macro and micro algae.All pieces are hand collected fresh from our gulf lease site by our diving staff and shipped directly to our customers.We do not use any chemicals in our process. The rocks pictured are for example only. All of our premium decorative live rock is as good or better than the rocks pictured. This is Florida Aquacultured live rock.
All of our live rock comes from our personal Federal Aquaculture Lease site located 10 miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico. All of our rock was planted on the ocean floor in 1994. So you can image how much marine life has grown on it in over the last 15 years. We have live rock in all different sizes and we can custom fit your order. Our premium decorative live rock starts at $5 a pound. We offer wholesale prices on larger volume orders.]

No bacteria in a bottle will provide diversity required for a healthy reef tank.

Thanks for the information. This is my plan to add to the sterile macro rock I will have in place to bring in the bacteria and natural filtration. Fish will be after I see everything is working. I have been looking at kpaquatics in the keys for live rock but I know there are other sources. I appreciate your thoughts on this.

 

[TanksJB]

I have been skimmerless > 40 years. In my experience, foam fractionators remove free swimming bacteria, spores, viruses and other stuff that contain DOC and for that matter are food for filter feeders, including coral.

I prefer to recycle that DOC back into photosynthetic organisms.

View attachment 1920745 View attachment 1920749

Your thoughts are what is leading me in this direction. When I get things up and running I will start posting on how it is going. If I fail, I will make adjustments.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Like Subsea, I've been keeping reef aquaria a long time (35 years) and only a few of those early years with a skimmer. After keeping reef aquaria running long term, one tends to lean toward the KISS principle. The main thing is that you provide the basic parameters for the health of the organisms that you keep and let the bacteria 'do their thing' (they are the ones that are really in the driver's seat, so you don't want to mess up the balance once established).

Whether small, medium or large, the biology is the same (just the methods used to achieve a healthy and stable system may be different):

Little 12g without mechanical or chemical filtration running for over 12 years (DIY lighting, pump, gravity-fed ATOs, heater and a thermometer...that's it):

 

[TanksJB]

Like Subsea, I've been keeping reef aquaria a long time (35 years) and only a few of those early years with a skimmer. After keeping reef aquaria running long term, one tends to lean toward the KISS principle. The main thing is that you provide the basic parameters for the health of the organisms that you keep and let the bacteria 'do their thing' (they are the ones that are really in the driver's seat, so you don't want to mess up the balance once established).

Whether small, medium or large, the biology is the same (just the methods used to achieve a healthy and stable system may be different):

Little 12g without mechanical or chemical filtration running for over 12 years (DIY lighting, pump, gravity-fed ATOs, heater and a thermometer...that's it):

View attachment 1920860

That really looks good. Kinda what I had in mind except larger and no sand. dimensions are 50X24X24 give or take.

 

[Nano sapiens]

That really looks good. Kinda what I had in mind except larger and no sand. dimensions are 50X24X24 give or take.

Thanks. In these smaller systems, water changes/detritus removal is often sufficient to keep waste products in check. In a larger system like you are planning, water changes are typically less frequent (or even not done at all) and/or a lesser percentage of the total volume is replaced. Although some form(s) of waste export is often used such as filter socks, roller mats, macro refugium, etc., just simply removing excess detritus regularly with a siphon can be all that's needed. Each system's needs are different, but employing the easiest and cheapest method that gets the job done is the way to go, IMO.

 

[Subsea]

I have that in mind. I have a large Trigger sump and plan on having an air stone working when water enters the system. I forgot to mention the tank will be bare bottom with a raised platform for the rock hidden from the viewing window. I decided no sand because of detritus accumulation with strong down flow to kick stuff around and back toward the out flow with socks to catch the big stuff. I plan on active carbon filtration either occasionally or all the time. That is one reason why I need advice just to see what others have done successfully. Thanks.

No problem with bare bottom using faux plenum for live rocks placement on top.. In time your faux plenum may act as a cryptic in tank refugium.

In my experiences, filter socks on water to sump is counter productive for natural filtration. Detritus is carbon for the foood chain and it is a source of microbial diversity of bacteria. Provide adequate detrivore crew with mud or sand sediment In your sump then you will have diversity of live food recycling nutrients to tank.

GAC is a tool that should not be used during early startup as it removes DOC, which is food for everything that grows. I always keep a HOB handy if I need to polish water with activated carbon.

 

[Subsea]

This is a quote from a Ron Shimek article you may find inspiring ?

"Upon examination of the material of a coral reef it becomes apparent that corals are only one component of the life on such a reef, and although they appear large and evident, their contribution to the actual amount of living material on the reef is relatively small.

In their pioneering study of the reef at Enewetak atoll, the Odums in 1955 showed that the majority of non-bacterial biomass on a "coral" reef was actually in the form of algae. They found that various types of algae were everywhere. There were algae growing in the coral tissues, of course, as zooxanthellae, but additionally there were algae growing freely and widely across the coral reef. The algae on the surface of the reef were diverse in form, and belonged to many groups, from large green algae such as Codium, to coralline red algae, to coralline green algae, to diatoms and dinoflagellates. In point of fact, they found enough algae on the reef to consider it far more reasonable to call such reefs algal reefs instead of coral reefs. I wonder how many aquarists would be hobbyists today if these biogenic structures were named after their most abundant life forms and called "algal reefs" rather than coral reefs.

In addition to the algae growing visibly on the surface of the rocks, the Odums were surprised to find that algae were growing INSIDE of all the substrates on a reef. Algae, primarily filamentous green algae, lived inside of coral heads, inside of dead coral skeleton, and inside of all coral rock and rubble. In fact, on an old coral atoll such as Enewetak where all evidence of the volcano that gave the reef its start has vanished with subsidence (the volcanic basis for the reef at Enewetak is found under some 5,000 feet (1515 m) of coral reef deposited over several million of years coral growth), virtually all of the rocks are riddled with algae and contain a lot of algal growth and biomass.

The Odums found that in the average coral head, in the region of the polyps, the density of the algal component was about 0.004 grams/cm3 and the animal component was about 0.021 g/cm3, while among the bases of the polyps the filamentous algae had a density of about 0.022 g/cm3. Below the polyp zone of the coral head the algae had a density of 0.037 g/cm3. In other words, in a coral head with living coral tissue on it, the animal component accounted for about one-fourth of the total, 0.021 g/cm3, while the various algal components amounted for 0.063 g/cm3. Interestingly, as well, the filamentous algal component of a coral head had a much greater biomass (about 16 times greater) than did the zooxanthellae in the coral.

The algae in the coral heads do not die when the coral animal does, and the amount of the coral algae in various rock components of the reef is shown in Figure 1. This figure, modified from the Odums' 1955 paper, shows the relative biomass of several rocky areas on the reef. I have colored the algal biomass amounts green, and the biomass inside rock that could be collected as live rock in yellow. The amount of algae living inside the various components of coral rubble and rock is quite significant, and those algae are quite important to our discussion of live rock porosity. If corals are grown in environments free of the algae that colonize their skeletons, those skeletons are typically quite porous. However, the algae growing within the rock add to the porosity by dissolving fine holes for their filaments."

.http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-0...ture/index.php


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[terraincognita]

Im also skimmerless.

Basically just ACCOUNT for the fact you don't have a skimmer.

Either with much smaller frequent feedings, or larger feedings spaced apart.

I'm currently doing 1-2 big feeds every other day or every 3 days depending on my tanks reaction.

Ideally i'd be doing 5 small feedings in 1 day every other day, but I don't have the time right now.

If you're not adding nutrients faster than your tank can handle, you don't need a skimmer to pull the excess out. Also realize reef roids, and AB+ and other things like this will also add nutrients you will need to have used, or pull it out with a skimmer. So just adjust properly.

KISS is the way to go when you're keeping your system barebones, you gotta apply it across the boards.

 

[Cell]

Just make a nice refugium.

 

[terraincognita]

Just make a nice refugium.

This also works

But I'm also fugeless :O

 

[Subsea]

[would like copepods and bacteria to do most of the work in filtration but I will add and do what I have to do to maintain the corals and diversity of life. ]

For copepods & bacteria to flourish, you need MULM.
@Paul B writes about MULM in his book.

"Mulm" in a reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can...

www.reefsanctuary.com

I try to keep it simple: detritus is carbon source, mixed in with minerals plus bacteria that when given oxygen and light becomes the “microbial highway” that moves 70% of carbon up the food chain.

 

[arking_mark]

I'm going skimmerless as well..

Basically skimmers are about 30% effective for removing TOC (skimmate analysis). By contract activated carbon and similar media is 60-80% effective. So while skimmers help with filtration, they are not as effective.

On the other hand, they are great for gas exchange...but with high flow and good surface agitation gas exchange probably isn't going to be a problem.

Skimmers can also help raise PH via a CO2 scrubber. However, the media is expensive and needs frequent replacement.

A refugium on the other hand can provide:
- Filtration that really soaks up nitrates and phosphate
- Increase PH, especially at night with a reverse lighting schedule
- Improve gas exchange via soaking up CO2 and releasing oxygen
- Provide a fantastic breeding ground for pods

Best of all, the only maintenance for a refugium is pulling out a handful of macro algae as needed. No skimmate, no cleaning a skimmer, no replacing CO2 scrubber media.

Your water change / dosing will be important.

Your media will also be important.

 

[terraincognita]

[would like copepods and bacteria to do most of the work in filtration but I will add and do what I have to do to maintain the corals and diversity of life. ]

For copepods & bacteria to flourish, you need MULM.
@Paul B writes about MULM in his book.

"Mulm" in a reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can...

www.reefsanctuary.com

I try to keep it simple: detritus is carbon source, mixed in with minerals plus bacteria that when given oxygen and light becomes the “microbial highway” that moves 70% of carbon up the food chain.

That's a ******* awesome article man.

Thank you for sharing.

That's some written evidence I've been looking for about reducing maintence to improve health also why I suggest keeping hands out of tanks! Leave it alone! It'll sort itself out . (I mean not really "sort itself out" but you get it)