Sanity check on current QT process

[Orion9]

Good evening,
I'm looking for recommendations after discovering multiple parasites several months ago.

Remaining inhabitants:

3 x Barr Goby

2 x Gold Head Sleeper Goby

2 x Percula Clownfish

1 x FireFish

1 x Midas Blenny

All fish began flashing on 12/1/2022. Attempted to treat DT with Reef Medic and Prazi Pro.

Removed from DT 1/31/2023, freshwater dipped, moved to newly setup QT.

20 gallon long with dry substrate and rock, HOB filter, powerhead, heater and air stone.

Parasite assessment and symptoms: Ich (salt grain sized spots, would disappear after a day), internal parasites (white stringy poop), flukes (flashing gills, nose, face).

Copper power maintained 2.0+ level for 30 days measured with hanna tester.

4 x doses of General Cure administered according to directions.

4 x prazipro administered according to directions.

Gill flashing continued.

Began hypo salinity 1.009 on 4/5/2023, no signs of stress, aggressively eating, plan to leave in hypo for one week total.

If no improvement would formalin be the next step?
Thanks,
John

 

[threebuoys]

Did you have some fish die over the course of this problem?
Did you have any symptoms other than whit spots and flashing?
Can you provide photos and video taken under white light?
I assume all fish showed symptoms?
Your use of copper and prazi should have handled ich, velvet and flukes. We recommend copperpower or coppersafe at 2.50ppm. 2.0 is a little low and it was not maintained for the full 30 days would not be effective. If you ramped up slowly you should not begin the 30 day count until full dose is achieved.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Good evening,
I'm looking for recommendations after discovering multiple parasites several months ago.

Remaining inhabitants:

3 x Barr Goby

2 x Gold Head Sleeper Goby

2 x Percula Clownfish

1 x FireFish

1 x Midas Blenny

All fish began flashing on 12/1/2022. Attempted to treat DT with Reef Medic and Prazi Pro.

Removed from DT 1/31/2023, freshwater dipped, moved to newly setup QT.

20 gallon long with dry substrate and rock, HOB filter, powerhead, heater and air stone.

Parasite assessment and symptoms: Ich (salt grain sized spots, would disappear after a day), internal parasites (white stringy poop), flukes (flashing gills, nose, face).

Copper power maintained 2.0+ level for 30 days measured with hanna tester.

4 x doses of General Cure administered according to directions.

4 x prazipro administered according to directions.

Gill flashing continued.

Began hypo salinity 1.009 on 4/5/2023, no signs of stress, aggressively eating, plan to leave in hypo for one week total.

If no improvement would formalin be the next step?
Thanks,
John

Will be hard to do any assessments without pics or videos under white lighting

 

[Orion9]

Three fish died.
Besides the white spots, fish developed white haze over eyes and on face, fin deterioration.
Best picture I have when spots were visible is attached. I have not seen the spots since copper treatment ended.
All fish showed symptoms while in DT.
Copper was slowly ramped up, 30 day timer started after reaching 2.0+, maintained with daily testing.

 

[Orion9]

No spots are currently visible or have been for several weeks. I presumed they still had gill flukes based on the gill flashing and lack of visible spots.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good evening,
I'm looking for recommendations after discovering multiple parasites several months ago.

Remaining inhabitants:

3 x Barr Goby

2 x Gold Head Sleeper Goby

2 x Percula Clownfish

1 x FireFish

1 x Midas Blenny

All fish began flashing on 12/1/2022. Attempted to treat DT with Reef Medic and Prazi Pro.

Removed from DT 1/31/2023, freshwater dipped, moved to newly setup QT.

20 gallon long with dry substrate and rock, HOB filter, powerhead, heater and air stone.

Parasite assessment and symptoms: Ich (salt grain sized spots, would disappear after a day), internal parasites (white stringy poop), flukes (flashing gills, nose, face).

Copper power maintained 2.0+ level for 30 days measured with hanna tester.

4 x doses of General Cure administered according to directions.

4 x prazipro administered according to directions.

Gill flashing continued.

Began hypo salinity 1.009 on 4/5/2023, no signs of stress, aggressively eating, plan to leave in hypo for one week total.

If no improvement would formalin be the next step?
Thanks,
John

You sure have given these fish every chance to get cured!
You should hold the fish in hypo for 30 days, I usually opt for 35. The reason why is that some flukes are egg layers and the hypo doesn’t kill the eggs, you need to hold the hypo long enough that any remaining eggs hatch out and then the larval fluke dies from the hypo.
I know a good fish disease husbandry person who says 14 days is long enough for Neobenedenia flukes, but I’ve had that short of a time fail, not sure why.
Jay

 

[Orion9]

Thanks for all of the responses and information!
I will continue hypo salinity treatment for 35 days and monitor for flashing after.

 

[Orion9]

I noticed new white spots on one my clownfish today, he's swimming with his head down and breathing seems labored. I've attached a video and would appreciate any help diagnosing his current condition. All other fish are breathing normally and very active.

This clownfish had some of the worst symptoms while in QT, he spent a lot of time rubbing his nose in the sand and flashing. I believe he has a laceration on his face, dark indentation between his left eye and mouth, from previous flashing. I have not seem him flash or scratch his face in a few weeks.

 

[Orion9]

The white spots are gone today but I noticed a piece of white stringy poop stuck to him since last night. Internal parasites were previously treated with meals soaked in Metroplex and Focus for a several weeks, later general cure was administered according to directions. I thought they were cured but believe the white poop is sign its returned.

I'm seeking treatment recommendations. I have metroplex and would like to treat the water since he's not eating, but unsure if that would be safe while in hypo salinity.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The white spots are gone today but I noticed a piece of white stringy poop stuck to him since last night. Internal parasites were previously treated with meals soaked in Metroplex and Focus for a several weeks, later general cure was administered according to directions. I thought they were cured but believe the white poop is sign its returned.

I'm seeking treatment recommendations. I have metroplex and would like to treat the water since he's not eating, but unsure if that would be safe while in hypo salinity.

View attachment 3114127

Mucus feces can be caused by a number of issues. The fish not eating though, points to more serious issues. This fish seems very full bodied, has it not been eating for very long?

Here is a list of things I've found that can cause mucus feces. Trouble is, without a microscope, you can't really pin down the cause:

Excess mucus in fish feces: this will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food. However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not “drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct. Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation resolved.

 

[Orion9]

Thank you for the list of causes.

Protozoan infection sounds likely, Do you know if Metronidazole/Metroplex can be dosed while in hypo salinity?

He has not eaten for 5 days and there are noticeable indentations on his sides. I added garlic to his favorite frozen foods but he shows no interest.

He did show signs of what I feared was ich prior to the weight loss, spots were only visible for 1 day.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for the list of causes.

Protozoan infection sounds likely, Do you know if Metronidazole/Metroplex can be dosed while in hypo salinity?

He has not eaten for 5 days and there are noticeable indentations on his sides. I added garlic to his favorite frozen foods but he shows no interest.
View attachment 3118212

Yes, you can dose metro in hyposalinity. Just understand that every treatment causes some stress, so combining treatments combines their stresses.
Jay

 

[Orion9]

He's losing weight quickly, indentations on his sides are becoming deeper and no interest in food. Wondering if I should try force feeding with tube or small pipette?
Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

He's losing weight quickly, indentations on his sides are becoming deeper and no interest in food. Wondering if I should try force feeding with tube or small pipette?
ThanksView attachment 3119090

Tube feeding is tricky, you really should use a fish anesthetic if you are going to try that. This fish hasn't lost body mass yet, it is not nearly as skinny as some I see here. However, the rapid respiration is worrisome. Here is my article on tube feeding:

Tube / Force Feeding Fish

This article describes methods of tube-feeding and force-feeding fish

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Orion9]

One of my bar gobies has been flashing several times per day and had white stringy poop this morning.

Metroplex has been added to the water every 48 hrs. since last Friday.
I tried feeding the clown in a breeder box filled with floating brine and mysis shrimp, but he continues to lose weight.

They've been through several treatments with Metroplex/Focus, Prazi, General Cure, as well as 35 days in Copper Power, and now in their 3rd week under hypo salinity.

Should they still be flashing after three weeks in hypo? Is the flashing in the video considered gill flashing, or could it be related to the digestive issue?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm stumped -
You've dosed metro in the water during hypo, right?
What is the current salinity?
The clownfish is still not eating? I see it is still breathing fast....can you increase the aeration?
The flashing of the goby is odd, definitely sign of some external irritation though.

I just don't see throwing any other medications at this, not without a firm diagnosis.

Just an FYI - there are a few diseases; coccidia and microsporidia that cannot be diagnosed without a microscope, and even then, cannot be treated. Typically though, I see more species specificity with those - like it only affecting one species in a group.

Jay

 

[Orion9]

Thanks for your help so far.
I'm currently dosing metro into the water, 2 spoons per 10 gallons every 48hrs.
Salinity is 1.08 - 1.09. Testing refractometer with calibration solution, and high precision hydrometer.
Clown is not eating, I will increase airflow.
I will purchase a microscope, starting to research now and seeing AmScope recommendations. Is there a model you'd recommend?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for your help so far.
I'm currently dosing metro into the water, 2 spoons per 10 gallons every 48hrs.
Salinity is 1.08 - 1.09. Testing refractometer with calibration solution, and high precision hydrometer.
Clown is not eating, I will increase airflow.
I will purchase a microscope, starting to research now and seeing AmScope recommendations. Is there a model you'd recommend?

For skin scrapes, a low power dissecting scope is all you need - I even have one that clips on to my iPhone. These will work to ID external protozoans as well as multi-celled flukes.
There is an binocular dissecting Amscope on Amazon for like $53, but I can’t copy the link here, not sure why not.
Jay

 

[Orion9]

I ordered a dissecting Amscope with slides and will start researching skin scraps. Can this also be used to view and diagnose the cause of the mucus / white poop, or should I order a high power scope as well?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I ordered a dissecting Amscope with slides and will start researching skin scraps. Can this also be used to view and diagnose the cause of the mucus / white poop, or should I order a high power scope as well?

You can see protozoans in the feces with that scope - so you can at least get a partial diagnosis. You won’t be able to diagnose bacteria….
Jay