Royal Gramma not able to swim

[kmapf]

Hello,
It’s now the second time in the past few weeks that my gramma isn’t able to swim properly…
He’s been Laying flat on the sand being able to keep himself upright for a longer period.
First incident I found him clamped in between my fragboard and the glass so I thought it’s exhaustion…
He jumped out of his Breeder box prison the second day and went back into his cave so I thought it’s all good.

This morning (roughly 2weeks later)
I found him laying on the floor again when lights turned on.
Couldn’t see any physical harm.
Basic guess would be some sort of swimbladder disease.

Maybe someone knows more and can help.

 

[kmapf]

Here are some videos of his behavior today

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here are some videos of his behavior today

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I'm not sure what to make of these videos. The first one shows the issue, but the second and third videos show the fish essentially normal (but that breeding box is too small for it).

Is the fish still eating?

Jay

 

[kmapf]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I'm not sure what to make of these videos. The first one shows the issue, but the second and third videos show the fish essentially normal (but that breeding box is too small for it).

Is the fish still eating?

Jay

Hi,
Firstly Thanks for your response,
I know the breeding box is too small.. it’s just a temporary thing until my QT is on temperature (if I won’t release the fish back into the tank).
His behavior is switching a lot it’s either like everything is fine or just laying flat on the floor..
And it’s the second time in a 3 week period for him to lay flat.
Eating is hard to judge.. his cave is facing towards the back of the tank and I’m not able to watch him leave it when I feed but he doesn’t seem thinned out. I tried to feed him earlier and he ate a few cyclops but not much (would say it’s because of the stress and not enough space to swim for the food).

---

 

[kmapf]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I'm not sure what to make of these videos. The first one shows the issue, but the second and third videos show the fish essentially normal (but that breeding box is too small for it).

Is the fish still eating?

Jay

Another vid from earlier when he was fresh in the box

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Another vid from earlier when he was fresh in the box

Sorry, I still can't tell you why it is laying on its side once in awhile, but its skin looks a bit "bedraggled" like another fish has picked on it, or it has skin flukes.

 

[kmapf]

Sorry, I still can't tell you why it is laying on its side once in awhile, but its skin looks a bit "bedraggled" like another fish has picked on it, or it has skin flukes.

So it’s the classic case of just happens
Picking is possible but he mainly stays in his cave.. and if they show aggression it’s not while I’m around, But the eye on his back fin has a cut.
Flukes is possible I mean I can treat for that..
but mainly the laying flat worries me.
First time it happened he was stuck like I stated before so I thought it’s exhaustion/physical harm.
I will attach a photo of him in general.. and his other behavior when in the box.
Pointing nose down and there you can see that he’s 'Fed' atleast I would say so… might be wrong.

 

[kmapf]

(white spots not on the fish it’s on the glass)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

(white spots not on the fish it’s on the glass)

Grammas orient themselves upside down in caves, so odd orientation is more normal for them. If it was just doing this in the small holding tank, I would say it is just feeling too confined, but I still can’t explain why it is going the same thing out in your main tank.

 

[kmapf]

Grammas orient themselves upside down in caves, so odd orientation is more normal for them. If it was just doing this in the small holding tank, I would say it is just feeling too confined, but I still can’t explain why it is going the same thing out in your main tank.

Sorry for the bad quality of the one video it’s from a video taken by my laptop…
We have 2 or 3 behaviors currently
Nose pointing down or up / laying flat sideways not being able to stay boyant

Or moving around sliding across the floor

Wouldn't that indicate some kind of swim bladder issue?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry for the bad quality of the one video it’s from a video taken by my laptop…
We have 2 or 3 behaviors currently
Nose pointing down or up / laying flat sideways not being able to stay boyant

Or moving around sliding across the floor

Wouldn't that indicate some kind of swim bladder issue?

In the second video, the fish seems to float up a bit when not actively swimming - that may be a sign of swim bladder issues. However, the other videos didn’t clearly show that. Basically, a fish with swim bladder issues can be positive or negative buoyant. In that case, when the fish stops swimming you will see it float or sink very fast. A normal fish will sink slowly when it isn’t swimming.

Also, I see a couple of white spots on its tail, those bear watching…..

 

[kmapf]

In the second video, the fish seems to float up a bit when not actively swimming - that may be a sign of swim bladder issues. However, the other videos didn’t clearly show that. Basically, a fish with swim bladder issues can be positive or negative buoyant. In that case, when the fish stops swimming you will see it float or sink very fast. A normal fish will sink slowly when it isn’t swimming.

Also, I see a couple of white spots on its tail, those bear watching…..

the second video he’s basically sliding across the floor… later when I’m back at home I can check Cam Footage of my laptop.
The thing is it feels like he can’t actively control his buoyancy .. he floats up when caught by the waterflow
But other than that he sticks to the ground. Also it feels like he’s falling over when he’s nose down.
Anything I can do for swim bladder issues ?

White spots weren’t prominent yesterday … I would count them towards a stress reaction and will watch them.

 

[kmapf]

In the second video, the fish seems to float up a bit when not actively swimming - that may be a sign of swim bladder issues. However, the other videos didn’t clearly show that. Basically, a fish with swim bladder issues can be positive or negative buoyant. In that case, when the fish stops swimming you will see it float or sink very fast. A normal fish will sink slowly when it isn’t swimming.

Also, I see a couple of white spots on its tail, those bear watching…..

Footage of my 3h Spy cam..
Shows both behaviors the not able to swim and stick to the ground and being buoyant.
Any idea ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Footage of my 3h Spy cam..
Shows both behaviors the not able to swim and stick to the ground and being buoyant.
Any idea ?

I'm still not seeing definitive signs of swim bladder issues, but maybe it is just a mild case. In any event, there is no treatment for that, just supportive care (feed it well, keep it calm and away from aggressive fish).

Jay

 

[kmapf]

I'm still not seeing definitive signs of swim bladder issues, but maybe it is just a mild case. In any event, there is no treatment for that, just supportive care (feed it well, keep it calm and away from aggressive fish).

Jay

Another day another time bothering Jay
Top part towards the backfin looks like having an abrasion or loss of scales now
But white spots are gone.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Another day another time bothering Jay
Top part towards the backfin looks like having an abrasion or loss of scales now
But white spots are gone.

Could this be physical damage from the holding container?

 

[kmapf]

Could this be physical damage from the holding container?

That’s his 'swimming' behavior still…
I had a piece of rock in the tank I now removed.
Could be abrasion from rubbing against things but I’m not 100% certain

 

[kmapf]

Could this be physical damage from the holding container?

sorry didn’t attach first try .. "swimming"

 

[Jay Hemdal]

sorry didn’t attach first try .. "swimming"

So - if the fish is positively buoyant, then it is going to need to wedge itself under things to keep from bobbing to the surface, that would account for the disrupted skin along its back.

There are not a lot of good treatments for positive floatation in fish. One thing that can alleviate the symptoms to some degree is to hold the fish in hyposalinity. That makes the fish less buoyant. However, the benefit is slight and is not a cure for the underlying issue.

Jay

 

[kmapf]

So - if the fish is positively buoyant, then it is going to need to wedge itself under things to keep from bobbing to the surface, that would account for the disrupted skin along its back.

There are not a lot of good treatments for positive floatation in fish. One thing that can alleviate the symptoms to some degree is to hold the fish in hyposalinity. That makes the fish less buoyant. However, the benefit is slight and is not a cure for the underlying issue.

Jay

So when he doesn’t see me he’s more in a swimming mood… sideways but he does.