remote deep sand bed for no3/po4

[davidwillis]

I have been in this hobby for 40 years, and I have never had the problems I have now. I started my current take about 3 years ago. This is the first tank that I had money to spend on it, so I figured it would be easier. Here is what I have:
300 gallon tank
Apex controller
Trident
Bashsea skimmer
ozone
uv
algae scrubber
bio pellets

Right off the bat, my first fish I ordered in had ich, black ich, and uronema. I was able to get all that under control (after loosing a few fish) by hypo salinity, and h202. After that I did not have any other problems until I went on vacation, and a gfci tripped due to a power surge. I lost my whole tank, and had to start over. This time I quarantined fish, but brought in a nasty form of turf algae on one of my corals. It was beginning to take over my tank, and nothing would eat it, so I used chemicals to treat it, then I got cyano, then dinos (which I am still fighting). While fighting dinos I stopped doing water changes for a while, which did not help (probably because my issue was not low nutrients). Corals started dying (all my euphyllia, some sps, clam, and snails). I thought it was due to the dinos, but now I think it was actually due to depleting trace elements because I was not doing water changes. I have started water changes now, and what did not die is recovering (I had a hole in a monti cap which is filling in).

This tank has taken a ton of time, and has not looked good at all... with all the technology going into this tank, you would think it would be easier and look better than my previous tanks with nothing but a skimmer....

So with what I have learned (and am continuing to learn even after 40 years in this hobby) I am going to try the reef moonshiners method (I think most problems came from an out of balance system). However I have always had borderline high po4/no3, and if I don't do water changes as often those will get too high (they are currently too high at 0.17 and 35). I was able to manage to keep them in a good range, but it involved water changes/ algae scrubber, bio pellets (before bio pellets I dosed carbon, but it didn't help, and I don't think the bio pellets helped), and water changes (2% daily). I know some of you will think I am over feeding my fish, and maybe I am, or I need to change fish food, and that might help. But one thing I do believe in is feeding my fish well

Sorry for the long story to get to my point. I need a way to control my no3 and po4, and am thinking of doing a remote deep sand bed along with my algae scrubber (the only thing that has shown to help some, but not enough). I think if nothing else the deep sand bed will take my no3 down, and maybe my po4. However over the last 40 years, this is one thing I have never done.

I have read peoples experiences, some good, some not so good. But I think this has a lot of potential. But here are some questions I have

1- how large, and how deep should it be for a 300 gallon tank heavily stocked with fish (a few corals, but hopefully I will have more soon)?
2- I have extra special grade sand, would that work, or could I mix it with oolitic sand?
3- how much flow should I have, and should it go over the top, in the bottom out the top, in the top, out the bottom?
4- I think I will run all water going into the bed through a 50 micron filter to keep most junk out. Is this a bad idea, since there would be no food to feed anything the bed would only have bacteria, no bristle worms, etc. Or is it better to let everything in, and have things growing in the sand?
5- What maintenance should be done? Should I clean sections out every once in a while, completely replace sand, etc?
6- if by change my po4/no3 gets too low (I have never had this problem), what would the plan be (dose po4/no3), remove sand, change the flow rate, or something else?


My goal is to get the water chemistry correct using the moonshiners reef method, and get no3/po4 down using a skimmer, algae scrubber, and deep sand bed. I will still probably do some water changes, but not as often.

 

[ti_lavender]

Which algae scrubber do you have / what bio load is it rated for?

 

[Debramb]

I have been in this hobby for 40 years, and I have never had the problems I have now. I started my current take about 3 years ago. This is the first tank that I had money to spend on it, so I figured it would be easier. Here is what I have:
300 gallon tank
Apex controller
Trident
Bashsea skimmer
ozone
uv
algae scrubber
bio pellets

Right off the bat, my first fish I ordered in had ich, black ich, and uronema. I was able to get all that under control (after loosing a few fish) by hypo salinity, and h202. After that I did not have any other problems until I went on vacation, and a gfci tripped due to a power surge. I lost my whole tank, and had to start over. This time I quarantined fish, but brought in a nasty form of turf algae on one of my corals. It was beginning to take over my tank, and nothing would eat it, so I used chemicals to treat it, then I got cyano, then dinos (which I am still fighting). While fighting dinos I stopped doing water changes for a while, which did not help (probably because my issue was not low nutrients). Corals started dying (all my euphyllia, some sps, clam, and snails). I thought it was due to the dinos, but now I think it was actually due to depleting trace elements because I was not doing water changes. I have started water changes now, and what did not die is recovering (I had a hole in a monti cap which is filling in).

This tank has taken a ton of time, and has not looked good at all... with all the technology going into this tank, you would think it would be easier and look better than my previous tanks with nothing but a skimmer....

So with what I have learned (and am continuing to learn even after 40 years in this hobby) I am going to try the reef moonshiners method (I think most problems came from an out of balance system). However I have always had borderline high po4/no3, and if I don't do water changes as often those will get too high (they are currently too high at 0.17 and 35). I was able to manage to keep them in a good range, but it involved water changes/ algae scrubber, bio pellets (before bio pellets I dosed carbon, but it didn't help, and I don't think the bio pellets helped), and water changes (2% daily). I know some of you will think I am over feeding my fish, and maybe I am, or I need to change fish food, and that might help. But one thing I do believe in is feeding my fish well

Sorry for the long story to get to my point. I need a way to control my no3 and po4, and am thinking of doing a remote deep sand bed along with my algae scrubber (the only thing that has shown to help some, but not enough). I think if nothing else the deep sand bed will take my no3 down, and maybe my po4. However over the last 40 years, this is one thing I have never done.

I have read peoples experiences, some good, some not so good. But I think this has a lot of potential. But here are some questions I have

1- how large, and how deep should it be for a 300 gallon tank heavily stocked with fish (a few corals, but hopefully I will have more soon)?
2- I have extra special grade sand, would that work, or could I mix it with oolitic sand?
3- how much flow should I have, and should it go over the top, in the bottom out the top, in the top, out the bottom?
4- I think I will run all water going into the bed through a 50 micron filter to keep most junk out. Is this a bad idea, since there would be no food to feed anything the bed would only have bacteria, no bristle worms, etc. Or is it better to let everything in, and have things growing in the sand?
5- What maintenance should be done? Should I clean sections out every once in a while, completely replace sand, etc?
6- if by change my po4/no3 gets too low (I have never had this problem), what would the plan be (dose po4/no3), remove sand, change the flow rate, or something else?


My goal is to get the water chemistry correct using the moonshiners reef method, and get no3/po4 down using a skimmer, algae scrubber, and deep sand bed. I will still probably do some water changes, but not as often.

Hi David, yeah, what a dream upgrade. Congratulations, we’re the 40 yrs in and now going 125! Oh man, you’ve got so many yrs in, what worked before for you? I’m happy for you and you’ll get this, So many people on here will help you through, I’m just excited for you
Debra (since the 80’s)

 

[Dan_P]

I have been in this hobby for 40 years, and I have never had the problems I have now. I started my current take about 3 years ago. This is the first tank that I had money to spend on it, so I figured it would be easier. Here is what I have:
300 gallon tank
Apex controller
Trident
Bashsea skimmer
ozone
uv
algae scrubber
bio pellets

Right off the bat, my first fish I ordered in had ich, black ich, and uronema. I was able to get all that under control (after loosing a few fish) by hypo salinity, and h202. After that I did not have any other problems until I went on vacation, and a gfci tripped due to a power surge. I lost my whole tank, and had to start over. This time I quarantined fish, but brought in a nasty form of turf algae on one of my corals. It was beginning to take over my tank, and nothing would eat it, so I used chemicals to treat it, then I got cyano, then dinos (which I am still fighting). While fighting dinos I stopped doing water changes for a while, which did not help (probably because my issue was not low nutrients). Corals started dying (all my euphyllia, some sps, clam, and snails). I thought it was due to the dinos, but now I think it was actually due to depleting trace elements because I was not doing water changes. I have started water changes now, and what did not die is recovering (I had a hole in a monti cap which is filling in).

This tank has taken a ton of time, and has not looked good at all... with all the technology going into this tank, you would think it would be easier and look better than my previous tanks with nothing but a skimmer....

So with what I have learned (and am continuing to learn even after 40 years in this hobby) I am going to try the reef moonshiners method (I think most problems came from an out of balance system). However I have always had borderline high po4/no3, and if I don't do water changes as often those will get too high (they are currently too high at 0.17 and 35). I was able to manage to keep them in a good range, but it involved water changes/ algae scrubber, bio pellets (before bio pellets I dosed carbon, but it didn't help, and I don't think the bio pellets helped), and water changes (2% daily). I know some of you will think I am over feeding my fish, and maybe I am, or I need to change fish food, and that might help. But one thing I do believe in is feeding my fish well

Sorry for the long story to get to my point. I need a way to control my no3 and po4, and am thinking of doing a remote deep sand bed along with my algae scrubber (the only thing that has shown to help some, but not enough). I think if nothing else the deep sand bed will take my no3 down, and maybe my po4. However over the last 40 years, this is one thing I have never done.

I have read peoples experiences, some good, some not so good. But I think this has a lot of potential. But here are some questions I have

1- how large, and how deep should it be for a 300 gallon tank heavily stocked with fish (a few corals, but hopefully I will have more soon)?
2- I have extra special grade sand, would that work, or could I mix it with oolitic sand?
3- how much flow should I have, and should it go over the top, in the bottom out the top, in the top, out the bottom?
4- I think I will run all water going into the bed through a 50 micron filter to keep most junk out. Is this a bad idea, since there would be no food to feed anything the bed would only have bacteria, no bristle worms, etc. Or is it better to let everything in, and have things growing in the sand?
5- What maintenance should be done? Should I clean sections out every once in a while, completely replace sand, etc?
6- if by change my po4/no3 gets too low (I have never had this problem), what would the plan be (dose po4/no3), remove sand, change the flow rate, or something else?


My goal is to get the water chemistry correct using the moonshiners reef method, and get no3/po4 down using a skimmer, algae scrubber, and deep sand bed. I will still probably do some water changes, but not as often.

Do yourself a favor and split phosphate and nitrate management. Use GFO or lanthanum chloride for substantial phosphate adjustments or ongoing heavy export. Biology is not an efficient process to accomplish phosphate control.

Nitrate requires substantial biomass formation or denitrification to keep it under control. If you are trying to reduce a high concentration and then maintain it at some lower level, your method will need to do some heavy lifting to see a reduction, less so for just maintenance. I am saying don’t underestimate the effort.

 

[Debramb]

Do yourself a favor and split phosphate and nitrate management. Use GFO or lanthanum chloride for substantial phosphate adjustments or ongoing heavy export. Biology is not an efficient process to accomplish phosphate control.

Nitrate requires substantial biomass formation or denitrification to keep it under control. If you are trying to reduce a high concentration and then maintain it at some lower level, your method will need to do some heavy lifting to see a reduction, less so for just maintenance. I am saying don’t underestimate the effort.

I’m sorry Dan, to interrupt, isnt his Live Rock a huge biomass? Just curious

 

[tzabor10]

I have been in this hobby for 40 years, and I have never had the problems I have now. I started my current take about 3 years ago. This is the first tank that I had money to spend on it, so I figured it would be easier. Here is what I have:
300 gallon tank
Apex controller
Trident
Bashsea skimmer
ozone
uv
algae scrubber
bio pellets

Right off the bat, my first fish I ordered in had ich, black ich, and uronema. I was able to get all that under control (after loosing a few fish) by hypo salinity, and h202. After that I did not have any other problems until I went on vacation, and a gfci tripped due to a power surge. I lost my whole tank, and had to start over. This time I quarantined fish, but brought in a nasty form of turf algae on one of my corals. It was beginning to take over my tank, and nothing would eat it, so I used chemicals to treat it, then I got cyano, then dinos (which I am still fighting). While fighting dinos I stopped doing water changes for a while, which did not help (probably because my issue was not low nutrients). Corals started dying (all my euphyllia, some sps, clam, and snails). I thought it was due to the dinos, but now I think it was actually due to depleting trace elements because I was not doing water changes. I have started water changes now, and what did not die is recovering (I had a hole in a monti cap which is filling in).

This tank has taken a ton of time, and has not looked good at all... with all the technology going into this tank, you would think it would be easier and look better than my previous tanks with nothing but a skimmer....

So with what I have learned (and am continuing to learn even after 40 years in this hobby) I am going to try the reef moonshiners method (I think most problems came from an out of balance system). However I have always had borderline high po4/no3, and if I don't do water changes as often those will get too high (they are currently too high at 0.17 and 35). I was able to manage to keep them in a good range, but it involved water changes/ algae scrubber, bio pellets (before bio pellets I dosed carbon, but it didn't help, and I don't think the bio pellets helped), and water changes (2% daily). I know some of you will think I am over feeding my fish, and maybe I am, or I need to change fish food, and that might help. But one thing I do believe in is feeding my fish well

Sorry for the long story to get to my point. I need a way to control my no3 and po4, and am thinking of doing a remote deep sand bed along with my algae scrubber (the only thing that has shown to help some, but not enough). I think if nothing else the deep sand bed will take my no3 down, and maybe my po4. However over the last 40 years, this is one thing I have never done.

I have read peoples experiences, some good, some not so good. But I think this has a lot of potential. But here are some questions I have

1- how large, and how deep should it be for a 300 gallon tank heavily stocked with fish (a few corals, but hopefully I will have more soon)?
2- I have extra special grade sand, would that work, or could I mix it with oolitic sand?
3- how much flow should I have, and should it go over the top, in the bottom out the top, in the top, out the bottom?
4- I think I will run all water going into the bed through a 50 micron filter to keep most junk out. Is this a bad idea, since there would be no food to feed anything the bed would only have bacteria, no bristle worms, etc. Or is it better to let everything in, and have things growing in the sand?
5- What maintenance should be done? Should I clean sections out every once in a while, completely replace sand, etc?
6- if by change my po4/no3 gets too low (I have never had this problem), what would the plan be (dose po4/no3), remove sand, change the flow rate, or something else?


My goal is to get the water chemistry correct using the moonshiners reef method, and get no3/po4 down using a skimmer, algae scrubber, and deep sand bed. I will still probably do some water changes, but not as often.

Sorry for your experience. Are you running a Refugium? Also, were you planning on running water flow THROUGH the sand? If so, where did you get that idea from? Personally I use water changes to vacuum sand detritus/ sump detritus. Also, have you tried quarantining fish at home?

 

[Dan_P]

I’m sorry Dan, to interrupt, isnt his Live Rock a huge biomass? Just curious

I am enjoying the question.

If live rock is all you need to remove nitrate from the system, it is likely doing it through denitrification, converting nitrate to nitrogen gas. The bacteria performing this is in a sense “breathing“ nitrate, consuming it with little biomass formation per molecule of nitrate removed. A live rock would not necessarily need or generate visible amounts of biomass to control a nitrate level.

Not all live rock has the same capacity to remove nitrate and no matter how good the live rock capacity is, its upper limit can be exceeded. The idea of adding a remote deep sand bed is an attempt to increase the denitrification capacity of the system without growing large amounts of bacteria (carbon dosing) or algae (algae scrubber, growing macro algae).

 

[stevolough]

Do a search on plenthum sand beds.

 

[davidwillis]

Which algae scrubber do you have / what bio load is it rated for?

Foursquare Aquatics
APIS-300 Algae Turf Scrubber

rated for up to 500 gallons

 

[davidwillis]

Hi David, yeah, what a dream upgrade. Congratulations, we’re the 40 yrs in and now going 125! Oh man, you’ve got so many yrs in, what worked before for you? I’m happy for you and you’ll get this, So many people on here will help you through, I’m just excited for you
Debra (since the 80’s)

I have almost always had an aquarium of some size. I got my first 55 gal when I was 16.

Almost any system I have done has worked for me until now, but I have never had a tank over 55 gal. I also have never been successful with corals. It has mostly been fish only, with just a few easy corals. My last tank was only a 29 gal, using the Hiatt system. I always had undetectable no3/po4, but never had dinos or any problems. However corals would not live long (probably a lack of something), an icp test would have been nice to use.

 

[davidwillis]

Do yourself a favor and split phosphate and nitrate management. Use GFO or lanthanum chloride for substantial phosphate adjustments or ongoing heavy export. Biology is not an efficient process to accomplish phosphate control.

Nitrate requires substantial biomass formation or denitrification to keep it under control. If you are trying to reduce a high concentration and then maintain it at some lower level, your method will need to do some heavy lifting to see a reduction, less so for just maintenance. I am saying don’t underestimate the effort.

Lanthanum chloride has worked well for me in the past, but I would like to be able to accomplish it more naturally.... I used it in a reactor, then ran the output through a 50 micron, then 5 micron filter. GFO has not worked as well, I am sure it would work if I used enough, long enough...

Do you have any suggestions on the questions I asked about the DSB?

Thanks!

 

[Debramb]

I am enjoying the question.

If live rock is all you need to remove nitrate from the system, it is likely doing it through denitrification, converting nitrate to nitrogen gas. The bacteria performing this is in a sense “breathing“ nitrate, consuming it with little biomass formation per molecule of nitrate removed. A live rock would not necessarily need or generate visible amounts of biomass to control a nitrate level.

Not all live rock has the same capacity to remove nitrate and no matter how good the live rock capacity is, its upper limit can be exceeded. The idea of adding a remote deep sand bed is an attempt to increase the denitrification capacity of the system without growing large amounts of bacteria (carbon dosing) or algae (algae scrubber, growing macro algae).

Thanks Dan, learning more each day, lol each year

 

[davidwillis]

Sorry for your experience. Are you running a Refugium? Also, were you planning on running water flow THROUGH the sand? If so, where did you get that idea from? Personally I use water changes to vacuum sand detritus/ sump detritus. Also, have you tried quarantining fish at home?

I did run a section of my sump with some chaetomorpha. Even though I had high no3/po4, and expensive lights, it did not grow real good. I switched to the algae scrubber which worked much better.

Back years ago when deep sand beds were all the rage, people used a plenum, and people also used reverse flow through an under gravel filter. I don't know if it is a good idea or not, but it seems like flow over the top would not be as efficient? That is why I asked the question. I know there are people on here that have a lot more experience with DSB than I do (I have never even run one).

Yes, I do quarantine fish at home. I use the hybrid tank transfer method, which has worked well for me. I didn't quarantine my first batch of fish on this new tank, because I figured I would just use my new tank as a quarantine (big mistake).

 

[davidwillis]

Do a search on plenthum sand beds.

Thanks... I have done searches on deep sand beds. I have read a lot on them. But there is not much on remote deep sand beds. Some people have had great success with deep sand beds (some with plenums, some not). However the hobby has moved away from them in favor of higher technology (biopellets, algae scrubbers, gfo, etc). I would like to have a new look at this old idea. Why did it go out of favor? Some say it is a time bomb waiting to happen, others say it is not... How can we make it reliably work?

 

[ti_lavender]

Foursquare Aquatics
APIS-300 Algae Turf Scrubber

rated for up to 500 gallons

This scrubber should be able to reduce your nitrates.
How long has it been running?
How does the screen look with algae?
What lighting schedule is the scrubber on?

If you haven’t done water changes you may need some trace elements. Would you consider an ICP test or have you had a recent one done?

I realize this isn’t related to your remote DSB question but hits on why you want to use that.

 

[stevolough]

Thanks... I have done searches on deep sand beds. I have read a lot on them. But there is not much on remote deep sand beds. Some people have had great success with deep sand beds (some with plenums, some not). However the hobby has moved away from them in favor of higher technology (biopellets, algae scrubbers, gfo, etc). I would like to have a new look at this old idea. Why did it go out of favor? Some say it is a time bomb waiting to happen, others say it is not... How can we make it reliably work?

I think some people didn’t like the look. Figure an inch gap on the bottom and 4” sand in the display. Then you covered a good portion with live rock. As far as a remote it think you needed at least as much surface area as display. Everything is better now. Better skimmers, better pumps, better filter options.

 

[davidwillis]

This scrubber should be able to reduce your nitrates.
How long has it been running?
How does the screen look with algae?
What lighting schedule is the scrubber on?

If you haven’t done water changes you may need some trace elements. Would you consider an ICP test or have you had a recent one done?

I realize this isn’t related to your remote DSB question but hits on why you want to use that.

It had been running about a year, but has been offline for a month or so, and just started it back up last week. I used to remove a few cups of algea a week. I have lighting during the night to help maintain ph.

I have a couple of icps, and just sent a new one off last week. For some reason the share link is not working, so I will post the file here of the latest... I have no idea as to why my iodine is high. I have not been adding anything with iodine (that I know of). I just add BRS calcium and soda ash.

 

[Mr. Roboto]

Personally I think just going back to the basics would be better. Where are the phosphates and nitrates coming from?

 

[davidwillis]

Personally I think just going back to the basics would be better. Where are the phosphates and nitrates coming from?

What are the basics? Isn't a sand bed basic?

phosphates and nitrates are coming from fish, which comes from feeding. I do feed good, but don't believe in the idea of starving your fish.

 

[Mr. Roboto]

What are the basics? Isn't a sand bed basic?

phosphates and nitrates are coming from fish, which comes from feeding. I do feed good, but don't believe in the idea of starving your fish.

I don't believe a sand bed has ever been required to keep a reef tank. The nitrogen cycle doesn't depend on the sand bed.

Sand beds can help or actually hurt a system. First things first are good husbandry. If the tank is clean and any waste is removed before it can build up then nutrients shouldn't be an issue.

If you are overfeeding, not cleaning your filters and skimmer frequently and cleaning out your sump as well as your display it's not going to matter what size remote sand bed you put on your tank.