Red/brown marks on new Watanabei angel in QT

[Extant]

Hello,

I picked up a pair of female Watanabei angelfish which came direct from the wholesaler (Melanesia is the origin label for both fish). After getting them acclimated and into the QT, I noticed that the larger fish has 3 marks on their body, with the one on the rear being more brown in color and two red ones on the underside of the fish. Both fish are eating and swimming just fine and I planned to dose copper power tomorrow morning, but wanted to check and make sure I don’t have a more pressing disease issue that needs to be addressed first.

Please let me know if additional photos are needed, I was trying to be mindful of too much light for the deep water angels.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I can't rule out Uronema from these pictures, but hopefully not.
I would contact the shipper since the fish arrived with these marks.

Since the fish are brand new, your tank parameters, diet, etc. all don't come into play (yet).

Jay

 

[Extant]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I can't rule out Uronema from these pictures, but hopefully not.
I would contact the shipper since the fish arrived with these marks.

Since the fish are brand new, your tank parameters, diet, etc. all don't come into play (yet).

Jay

Jay,

Thank you for the response. I’ve attached a few additional photos if that helps from this morning. The larger female has the same brownish mark on one of the pelvic fins as well. Additionally the smaller angel now has some marks on their side that are more of a purple color, but I’ve seen the larger female chasing the smaller one so that may be the cause of these new marks.

side from following the current quarantine protocol and monitoring for any more indicators of uronema, is there anything else I should be doing?
Thank you.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’ve never seen Uronema on fins before. It’s the one under the fish’s mouth that has me the most worried. I’m hopeful that these are just from shipping damage though……
Jay

 

[Extant]

As a quick update, the angel has continues to have a healthy appetite, and has been swimming/breathing normally for the past 6 days in the QT tank. The mark under the mouth has healed and was mostly gone within 2-3 days. The spot near the rear of its body appeared to form a scab and was lifting off of the body. This evening it has fallen off to show some red flesh underneath. I’ve attaches photos of the scab from this morning and the view from about 10 minutes ago. I have some Enrofloxacin on order in case it’s bacterial, any thoughts on the course of treatment going forward?
The tank is at 2.5 ppm of copper power and has a salinity of 1.021.

this morning :

this evening :

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Doesn't the lesion look more elongate in the second picture? If you showed me just the second picture, I would say Uronema.

For enrofloxacin, the dose is 10 to 20 mg per gallon of active drug (you need to discount any binders in the calculation). The open question is - then, what about repeat doses? Enro is a long-lived antibiotic. One aquatic veterinarian suggests daily doses, preceded by a 50 to 75% water change.

Jay

 

[jacksoje00]

Hi. I also received a pair recently and the female had the lesion shown in the attached pic. After about 2 weeks of heavy feeding a variety of foods, the lesion is almost completely gone. Hope this is the case for your fish.

 

[Extant]

Both angelfish are now at Day 23 of Copper Power at 2.5 PPM. The lesion in the photo above had healed up and Formalin was dosed into the QT tank at 0.9ml per 10 gallons of water for a period of 10 days which finished yesterday. At the end of the formalin treatment, I noticed several small circular holes around the face/eyes on the angelfish with lesion (see below photos). The best way I'm able to describe it as the pictures are not perfectly clear are small pock marks around face, with a brown color in the holes. There are multiple holes around the eyes that don't really show i nthe picture as well, right outside of the eyeball. Additionally, the spot on the lower fin and the rear of these fish are still there but have not grown in size.

Given the location of the holes/marks on the face, would flukes be a likely culprit? If so is Prazi the recommended solution after day 30 of Copper or is Hypo a better choice to ensure eradication?

Thank you.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Both angelfish are now at Day 23 of Copper Power at 2.5 PPM. The lesion in the photo above had healed up and Formalin was dosed into the QT tank at 0.9ml per 10 gallons of water for a period of 10 days which finished yesterday. At the end of the formalin treatment, I noticed several small circular holes around the face/eyes on the angelfish with lesion (see below photos). The best way I'm able to describe it as the pictures are not perfectly clear are small pock marks around face, with a brown color in the holes. There are multiple holes around the eyes that don't really show i nthe picture as well, right outside of the eyeball. Additionally, the spot on the lower fin and the rear of these fish are still there but have not grown in size.

Given the location of the holes/marks on the face, would flukes be a likely culprit? If so is Prazi the recommended solution after day 30 of Copper or is Hypo a better choice to ensure eradication?

View attachment 3119532View attachment 3119531

Thank you.

That is the start of head and lateral line erosion (HLLE). Fairly rare in this genus of fish, but the symetrical marks are distinctive.

The fish could also have flukes of course, but those holes are not a sign of that. Once your other treatments are done, I would suggest a course of Prazipro to help reduce the chance of flukes.

Regarding HLLE, you'll read that "copper causes it". However, I've studied this extensively, and have never drawn any direct correlation to copper. I've used copper on dozens of Genicanthus angels and have never seen it. Perhaps formalin plus copper is another matter? In the end, it seems to be something unique to the tank the fish is in, and moving the fish into a tank that doesn't have HLLE in it seems to help.

Carbon use has been proven to cause HLLE. It can be tricky to tie that down because the carbon use could have been from before you got the fish. Here is an article I wrote about my study:

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Extant]

That is the start of head and lateral line erosion (HLLE). Fairly rare in this genus of fish, but the symetrical marks are distinctive.

The fish could also have flukes of course, but those holes are not a sign of that. Once your other treatments are done, I would suggest a course of Prazipro to help reduce the chance of flukes.

Regarding HLLE, you'll read that "copper causes it". However, I've studied this extensively, and have never drawn any direct correlation to copper. I've used copper on dozens of Genicanthus angels and have never seen it. Perhaps formalin plus copper is another matter? In the end, it seems to be something unique to the tank the fish is in, and moving the fish into a tank that doesn't have HLLE in it seems to help.

Carbon use has been proven to cause HLLE. It can be tricky to tie that down because the carbon use could have been from before you got the fish. Here is an article I wrote about my study:

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Thank you for the info, it does seem to be HLLE, the smaller angel also has similar holes but much less overall. No carbon has been run on my qt system, but who knows what the fish was exposed to prior to my purchase.
Given that this the beginning of HLLE, would you recommend following the current qt protocol all the way through including the two week observation? My plan is to step up water changes ( matching copper and 72+ hours after prazi doses) and continue though the treatments, but I’m curious if the 2 week observation should be skipped to get these fish into the DT, assuming no new signs of disease show up.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for the info, it does seem to be HLLE, the smaller angel also has similar holes but much less overall. No carbon has been run on my qt system, but who knows what the fish was exposed to prior to my purchase.
Given that this the beginning of HLLE, would you recommend following the current qt protocol all the way through including the two week observation? My plan is to step up water changes ( matching copper and 72+ hours after prazi doses) and continue though the treatments, but I’m curious if the 2 week observation should be skipped to get these fish into the DT, assuming no new signs of disease show up.

That’s a tough call - moving the fish to the DT is the best way to hopefully outrun the HLLE, but there is some risk in doing that, if any portion of the quarantine failed for some reason. If the fish look really good after the prazi, you can make a judgement call then.
Jay