Read the ich sticky post, still need advice

[Ben jammin]

I have a 270 gallon FOWLR that has been humming along with no problems until recently. Nitrates about 10 ppm, all fish healthy and happy with no aggression. Last Saturday (10 days ago) I added spiny box puffer (C. schoepfi) that I had been waiting on for a while. My LFS, which takes pride in its husbandry, had just gotten it in from a very reputable wholesaler. He was not yet eating but I figured that was normal with these fish so soon after transport. I brought him home and did a slow drip acclimation followed by a treatement in Safety Stop (I don't have a QT- I know, I know), then into the display tank. I tried enticing him to eat with various fresh and frozen foods treated with Garlix Xtreme but he hid a lot and would not eat for several days. Finally, on Wednesday, I think the stress got to him and he started showing a few spots of ich on his tail, and the spots grew in number and a few showed up on his body by the following morning. That same morning, though, he started eating, and became a lot less shy, finally comfortable in his new surroundings.

It's now about 5-6 days since he first developed ich. He has lots of spots on his fins and some on his body but is otherwise behaving normally, eating and showing some personality. So far my other fish all appear healthy too, with the possible exception of my longhorn cowfish who may have a few spots (hard to tell - his fins are never clear as he always seems to have some lymph spots). He is eating and behaving well too, though.

I have some Cupramine at the ready but am loathe to use it as I don't want to contaminate my live rock and sand bed and preclude possibly adding inverts at some point (years) down the road. My LFS has said that since the outbreak was due to stress on the puffer and not poor water quality, and the puffer is now eating, that the other fish should be able to fight it off and the puffer has a good chance to beat it. They advised holding off on Cupramine treatment unless other fish start showing signs.

Since I dont' have another tank or anywhere to put one, a hospital tank is not really an option for me (and I fear moving the puffer would just stress him out more). The sticky thread says hyposalinity is not a good idea in the display tank. Do the experts in here agree with the advice of my LFS, do you think I should start with Cuprmamine to prevent the infection from spreading, or are there any other treatment suggestions?

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Reefing Madness]

I agree, leave them be. If he continues to eat and is happy in his new surroundings then this little bout with ich will take care of itself. May take a couple of weeks for it to disappear but im betting he beats it, you get hom fattened up and your in good shape, once you start messing with everyone, thatsnwhen the stress elevates and things happen.

 

[Dalmatia]

You have only fish in the tank? If yes use the cupramine. I did it 3 times to my reef tank. I removed all corals and inverts to a new tank, but you won't have those problems!
Use the cupramine for 2 weeks after you see the last spot.
After that use cuprazorb, for a 250g you will be needing a lot of cuprazorb for maybe 2-3 months till you can intrudes some coral or inverts

 

[Marshall O]

I agree, leave them be. If he continues to eat and is happy in his new surroundings then this little bout with ich will take care of itself. May take a couple of weeks for it to disappear but im betting he beats it, you get hom fattened up and your in good shape, once you start messing with everyone, thatsnwhen the stress elevates and things happen.

I agree 100%. Just keep a close eye on it and the other tankmates. If you notice that it becomes covered in Ich, at that point I would look to treat the tank.

 

[Ben jammin]

Thanks for the replies. I think I will just keep a close eye on things for now. He seems comfortable and all the other fish still look good, so I'm hoping he'll beat it as predicted. He's a cute little guy and I'd hate to lose him - as would my kids.

 

[Dalmatia]

Wow,,, he is very nice

 

[tgp4274]

If only fish only n your still concerned i'd say the hipo n not the cupimine (spelling.....) expecialy if planning on inverts... Rock is expencive to replace the much.... Good luck!!!

 

[Palting]

That's a good looking puffer!

In the absence of a QT, I would leave things alone. NEVER medicate the DT, especially with copper. Hyposalinity and copper will kill all your inverts.

I would, however, advise you to start looking into setting up treatment plan. Your DT now has Ich. Although the puffer may make it, you now run the same risk of any future newly introduced fish to stress, develop Ich and die from it. I would plan on a QT to house and treat all your fish, and leaving the DT fallow.

 

[Ben jammin]

Thanks for the nice comments on my puffer. He's really entertaining and my kids have named him Gizmo cause he reminds them of the Mogwai from Gremlins. He even dislikes bright light, and I never feed him after midnight. Can't help getting getting him wet though :tongue1:

Anyway, its two weeks in and while he's still eating well, he is covered with ich and I have noticed some spots on my cowfish, and my juv. french angel has some abrasions like he may be scratching. After consulting with my LFS I decided to dose with Cupramine tonight. It's a pure FOWLR tank and I don't have any inverts - the fish plan calls for large wrasses(dragon, tusk, red coris), triggers, and of course the puffer who would all eat a cleanup crew, and several of my other fish also are not reef safe. I decided preserving the invert option for the future was not worth risking the lives of my current fish. So, I'll dose with the Cupramine for three weeks (bottle says two but I'll add a week to be safe), and hopefully it will clear everything up. I'll report back on how it goes. Fingers crossed.

 

[Palting]

You have live rock, don't know if you have substrate. Both these areas have inverts: worms, stars, pods, etc. The more mature the tank, the more there will be. Copper will kill them. Watch your ammonia from die off.

 

[Ben jammin]

That's a good point Palting, thank you for bringing it up. The live rock I have is actually that Real Reef rock, though, which is a man-made aggregate that looks like coralline covered rock but has not been cultured in the ocean and isn't populated with inverts of any kind (so as to avoid hitchhikers and other pests). In fact it's not even porous like real rock. So I think I am okay, but I will do an occassional ammonia test to be sure.

 

[Dalmatia]

That's a good point Palting, thank you for bringing it up. The live rock I have is actually that Real Reef rock, though, which is a man-made aggregate that looks like coralline covered rock but has not been cultured in the ocean and isn't populated with inverts of any kind (so as to avoid hitchhikers and other pests). In fact it's not even porous like real rock. So I think I am okay, but I will do an occassional ammonia test to be sure.

If I was you,, I'd start with the cupramine before you start losing fish.
With cuprizorb you can get it all out with in a month or 2. I've done it 3 times already and still have all my corals thriving after placing them back.

 

[feh]

Personally I wouldn't risk copper in my tank with or without inverts. I'd start a hypo-salinity treatment. I personally try to avoid copper at all costs. The drop in salinity should work as long as you have no inverts.

 

[Bry]

Personally I wouldn't risk copper in my tank with or without inverts. I'd start a hypo-salinity treatment. I personally try to avoid copper at all costs. The drop in salinity should work as long as you have no inverts.

+1 - Agree completely.. I've had to much success with Hypo. Copper would ONLY be used in a hospital tank and never for ich.

 

[Ben jammin]

Well, I had already dosed the copper when I posted last, so too late to try the hypo salinity. I am also a lot less familiar with that method, but everything I have seen says that Cupramine works. I guess I'll find out.

Dalmatia, that's really encouraging that you've been able to keep corals after a Cupramine treatment. I am planning to remove it with Cuprisorb in a canister filter but figured it would continue to leach out of my rock. It would be great if I could eventually add some snails and hermits to help with algae control, though I plan to add a Ctenochaetus tang of some kind for that purpose after the treatment is done.

 

[Marshall O]

+1 - Agree completely.. I've had to much success with Hypo. Copper would ONLY be used in a hospital tank and never for ich.

You wouldn't use copper for Ich??? That is what it is almost always used for (velvet would be the other most common). There are good and bad to either hypo or copper. Just chose one and stick to it.

 

[NC2WA]

Benjamin,

Any beneficial bacteria that you had in the DT is now gone with the use of copper.

For future reference, I would read the following articles:

Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts

 

[Ben jammin]

I am updating this thread with a progress report, so that hopefully people facing similar situations in the future can find it in search and be helped by it.

It has been almost two weeks since I dosed the Cupramine in my display tank, and I am happy report that after having been covered with ich at the start, my puffer now appears to be ich-free. Even his fins are completely clear. My other fish, such as my cowfish and french angel, which had also gotten mild cases of ich, are also clear. Everyone survived and appears to be thriving. I will probably keep the copper at its current dose for another week or so for good measure before doing a water change and running Cuprasorb to remove it.

Despite the warning of some in this thread, there were no adverse effects on my nitrifying bacteria from the copper. I have experienced no ammonia spikes and my nitrates remain low (<10 ppm) as well. Also, because I have Real Reef rock instead of natural live rock, I did not have to worry about any invert die-off. I definitely recommend the Real Reef rock for anyone with a FOWLR system for this reason.

The next test for me will be to see how effective the Cuprasorb is at removing copper from the tank, and specifically the live rock and sand. Real Reef rock is not as porous as real rock so I don't think it is prone to absorption followed by leaching like real rock would be. My sand bed (several inches thick to provide a place for my wrasses to sleep at night) will be another question, but SeaChem claims on their product page that Cupramine does not bind up with rock/sand and leach the way that other forms of copper do, and should be fully removable with Cuprasorb. Their info and product have been right so far so I have no reason to doubt, and that appears to be consistent with Dalmatia's experience as well. I will test this out by adding some snails/hermits as a cleanup crew after I've run the Cuprasorb for a while.

I will also say that I have never tried hyposalinity, but it sounds like a more difficult treatment than Cupramine, which was extremely easy, and more stressful on the fish as well. But I can't say for sure. I can only say that Cupramine works as advertised.

Anyway, I'm incredibly relieved that Gizmo the puffer survived and all my fish are healthy again. I am looking forward to resuming my stocking plan in the
next few weeks.

Thanks to everyone for all the comments and advice and I hope others find this thread helpful in the future.

 

[NC2WA]

I will also say that I have never tried hyposalinity, but it sounds like a more difficult treatment than Cupramine, which was extremely easy, and more stressful on the fish as well. But I can't say for sure. I can only say that Cupramine works as advertised

Glad to hear all went well.

I would agree with that statement...hyposalinity is harder on the aquarist but easier on the fish....cupramine is easy as long as you follow the instructions AND have a syringe to administer the dosage.