Possible Cyano or Dino outbreak, Help ID and Solutions

[mr fishy 3000]

Hello Everyone,

I was hoping to get some help with ID a bacteria outbreak in my tank. I believe it is either Cyano or Dino. I can't seem to figure out how to treat it and it is starting to grow on my corals and I would like to get rid of it.

My parameters to start:
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 0 - 5 ppm
Phospate 0-0.25 ppm
ALK 9
Calcium 420
Taken using API test kit

I have included pictures of the outbreak for help IDing. There is a lot of micro bubble build up on the rocks. Some of the Bacterica has started to turn white.
It has definitely reduced since I increased the amount of time my refugium was on. There is a lot of long stringy algae/bacteria in my sump. These photos were taken with a week of build up. There is little to know algae build up on the glass and rocks which makes me think it is a nutrient or feeding problem. I have a Refugium that I run 20 hrs a day. And I also run carbon. I do not have a UV but if this is what is needed to fix it, I will get one.

I don't believe it disappears at night as well.

What do you believe it is? How the frick do I get rid of it.

Thanks in advanced.

 

[AAAReefing]

Hello Everyone,

I was hoping to get some help with ID a bacteria outbreak in my tank. I believe it is either Cyano or Dino. I can't seem to figure out how to treat it and it is starting to grow on my corals and I would like to get rid of it.

My parameters to start:
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 0 - 5 ppm
Phospate 0-0.25 ppm
ALK 9
Calcium 420
Taken using API test kit

I have included pictures of the outbreak for help IDing. There is a lot of micro bubble build up on the rocks. Some of the Bacterica has started to turn white.
It has definitely reduced since I increased the amount of time my refugium was on. There is a lot of long stringy algae/bacteria in my sump. These photos were taken with a week of build up. There is little to know algae build up on the glass and rocks which makes me think it is a nutrient or feeding problem. I have a Refugium that I run 20 hrs a day. And I also run carbon. I do not have a UV but if this is what is needed to fix it, I will get one.

I don't believe it disappears at night as well.

What do you believe it is? How the frick do I get rid of it.

Thanks in advanced.

IMO it looks more like Cyano due to the burgundy coloring but the best way to figure out would be to buy a microscope and look under it, or perform the coffee filter test. I got rid of Cyano overnight with a little bit of chemiclean. Your Nitrates and phosphate are on the lower side too which invites in dinos. I would keep the fuge or skimmer if you have one off for a bit and raise up nutrients, and try some chemiclean.

 

[Formulator]

Looks like cyano. Increasing flow will help. Cyano likes nutrient instability. 0-0.25 phosphate is a fairly large range. If you can, try to dial it in above 0.1 ppm so you don’t bottom out to zero. Same with nitrate - 5-10 ppm would be better than 0-5 ppm.

 

[Formulator]

IMO it looks more like Cyano due to the burgundy coloring but the best way to figure out would be to buy a microscope and look under it, or perform the coffee filter test. I got rid of Cyano overnight with a little bit of chemiclean. Your Nitrates and phosphate are on the lower side too which invites in dinos. I would keep the skimmer off for a bit and raise up nutrients, and try some chemiclean.

I agree with everything until you get to chemiclean. IMO that should be a last resort. Increased flow and nutrient management may be enough to resolve the issue. A 3 day blackout period could be tried next. Chemiclean if nothing else works. The problem with chemiclean is that it kills a lot of beneficial microbes in our tank which can lead to further nutrient instability problems and even invite dino. Its like hitting a biological reset button on your tank.

 

[mr fishy 3000]

IMO it looks more like Cyano due to the burgundy coloring but the best way to figure out would be to buy a microscope and look under it, or perform the coffee filter test. I got rid of Cyano overnight with a little bit of chemiclean. Your Nitrates and phosphate are on the lower side too which invites in dinos. I would keep the fuge or skimmer if you have one off for a bit and raise up nutrients, and try some chemiclean.

I am going to try chemiclean, if that doesn't solve it I will transition towards attacking Dinos.

 

[mr fishy 3000]

Looks like cyano. Increasing flow will help. Cyano likes nutrient instability. 0-0.25 phosphate is a fairly large range. If you can, try to dial it in above 0.1 ppm so you don’t bottom out to zero. Same with nitrate - 5-10 ppm would be better than 0-5 ppm.

It is not that my nutrients are unstable, thats as accurate that the test allow me to get. I ordered a Hanna Phosphate checker, looking into a good nitrate test now. It is the same with nitrites, that is the range that my test results give me. I test weekly and it is always the same color.

 

[mr fishy 3000]

I agree with everything until you get to chemiclean. IMO that should be a last resort. Increased flow and nutrient management may be enough to resolve the issue. A 3 day blackout period could be tried next. Chemiclean if nothing else works. The problem with chemiclean is that it kills a lot of beneficial microbes in our tank which can lead to further nutrient instability problems and even invite dino. Its like hitting a biological reset button on your tank.

I run 2 MP40's at 20% power so I feel like there is already a lot of flow in the tank. I will look into trying a blackout period and raising my nutrients up.

 

[AAAReefing]

I agree with everything until you get to chemiclean. IMO that should be a last resort. Increased flow and nutrient management may be enough to resolve the issue. A 3 day blackout period could be tried next. Chemiclean if nothing else works. The problem with chemiclean is that it kills a lot of beneficial microbes in our tank which can lead to further nutrient instability problems and even invite dino. Its like hitting a biological reset button on your tank.

I agree with trying alternate methods before treatment but I haven't seen any work as much as ChemiClean. I'm also not sure if I agree that Chemi-Clean kills other bacteria within the tank as from what i've heard, its Erythromycin, which inhibits growth inabilities in gram negative bacteria only rather than the positive ones found in our rockwork.

 

[AAAReefing]

It is not that my nutrients are unstable, thats as accurate that the test allow me to get. I ordered a Hanna Phosphate checker, looking into a good nitrate test now. It is the same with nitrites, that is the range that my test results give me. I test weekly and it is always the same color.

I've heard good things about the Salifert Nitrate tests as well as their others

 

[Formulator]

I'm also not sure if I agree that Chemi-Clean kills other bacteria within the tank as from what i've heard, its Erythromycin, which inhibits growth inabilities in gram negative bacteria only rather than the positive ones found in our rockwork.

The biodiversity of a mature tank includes hundreds or thousands of bacterial species both gram negative and gram positive. It is true that the nitrifying bacteria key to our tanks’ ability process ammonia will not be affected by chemiclean, but to say that there are no off target effects to the biofilm would be incorrect. Cyano is not the only gram negative bacteria living in our tanks.

That’s all not to mention the countless experiences of other reefers, documented in these forums, who have observed the common progression from cyano to dino infestation after chemiclean use.

 

[Formulator]

I run 2 MP40's at 20% power so I feel like there is already a lot of flow in the tank. I will look into trying a blackout period and raising my nutrients up.

Thats not a lot of flow lol. Crank those puppies up! How big is the tank?

 

[AAAReefing]

The biodiversity of a mature tank includes hundreds or thousands of bacterial species both gram negative and gram positive. It is true that the nitrifying bacteria key to our tanks’ ability process ammonia will not be affected by chemiclean, but to say that there are no off target effects to the biofilm would be incorrect. Cyano is not the only gram negative bacteria living in our tanks.

That’s all not to mention the countless experiences of other reefers, documented in these forums, who have observed the common progression from cyano to dino infestation after chemiclean use.

I see what you mean. I heard from some that the dino-vulnerable phase after the end of treatment can help become stable with increased nutrients. Do you think that would be an effective measure in preventing dinos?

 

[mr fishy 3000]

Thats not a lot of flow lol. Crank those puppies up! How big is the tank?

Shoot forgot to add that in. It is a 75 gallon tank.

 

[Formulator]

Shoot forgot to add that in. It is a 75 gallon tank.

I would think you could crank them up to at least 40%. You shouldn’t have cyano able to grow on your leather coral like I see in one photo. That suggests to me that you could use some more flow in the tank. It would never take hold on a living coral tissue with sufficient flow.

 

[Formulator]

I see what you mean. I heard from some that the dino-vulnerable phase after the end of treatment can help become stable with increased nutrients. Do you think that would be an effective measure in preventing dinos?

Yes, absolutely recommended. There are some really interesting new studies and a series of articles on “holosystemics” over on reefs.com that emphasIze the importance of diversity in our complex biofilm. Even if dino is prevented through careful nutrient management, the chemiclean will have a significant impact on the biodiversity of our reef, which may lead to longer term nutrient instability, and generally being more susceptible to other pests.

I do think chemiclean has its place, and I think it is a viable last resort. I just think its also important to understand potential consequences and prepare as best as possible to prevent or deal with them when/if they arise. Some have even compared the after effects of chemiclean to restarting the “ugly phase”.

Here is that article I referenced on reefs.com if interested: Holosystemics Part I: Captive Reef Function versus Malfunction

 

[AAAReefing]

Yes, absolutely recommended. There are some really interesting new studies and a series of articles on “holosystemics” over on reefs.com that emphasIze the importance of diversity in our complex biofilm. Even if dino is prevented through careful nutrient management, the chemiclean will have a significant impact on the biodiversity of our reef, which may lead to longer term nutrient instability, and generally being more susceptible to other pests.

I do think chemiclean has its place, and I think it is a viable last resort. I just think its also important to understand potential consequences and prepare as best as possible to prevent or deal with them when/if they arise. Some have even compared the after effects of chemiclean to restarting the “ugly phase”.

Here is that article I referenced on reefs.com if interested: Holosystemics Part I: Captive Reef Function versus Malfunction

Definitely will check that out. Thanks!