Please help me understand why I'm losing fish

saltcats

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Timeline: I added 1 firefish to the tank 1/20/24. Ate well, really bold and calm. On 1/28/24 I added a Hector's goby. This fish yawned and flashed a couple of times, and then the firefish began to yawn as well so I dosed with PraziPro following directions on this forum (first dose 2.5ml on 1/30; follow up dose 2.5ml on 2/7). Haven't noticed any yawning or flashing since then, both fish were doing really well.

The firefish especially eats great; hector's goby doesn't seem to take anything I offer but he has plumped up significantly since I got him and looks in good condition, active and swims well.

The fish were due to move from this QT tank to my big tank on 3/13 after a 45 day observational period, but this got delayed when the main display developed ostreopsis dinos (resolving well with UV).

Sometime last week the firefish didn't seem to be eating quite as well but still good - he was still very vigorous in his pursuit of food and ate enthusiastically, but would maybe only eat 3 pieces of frozen food and then lose interest whereas up until then he would keep eating until I decided he'd had plenty (his stomach would get big).

He started hiding a lot and only coming out when I offered food. A couple of days ago he stopped coming out at all and I was very concerned; he came out finally yesterday but was breathing very heavily and did not take any food I offered (tried frozen mysis and cyclopod).
He seemed to have some difficulty swimming but stayed upright, and then rested on the sand for a while but up on his fins. I could not see any sign of injury on him, or any cloudiness/spots. I wouldn't say he was breathing rapidly, just very heavily with a very open mouth.
No pics or video unfortunately, and I haven't seen him this morning.
The other fish seems fine as far as I can tell.

Last wet thing I added was 3 coral frags on 3/16. Before that nothing since 1/25.

I have had one of the 2 outputs on the tank directed towards the surface the entire time, and have had an airstone running in the back chamber since the initial prazi dosing to help with oxygenation; I moved the second nozzle to also point upwards yesterday when I noticed the heavy breathing just in case it was an oxygen issue.

One final note on this tank: I did have a hector's goby in there previously (added 11/24/23; died 12/22/23). He also went from being very active and normal looking to acting reclusive and then not eating, seeming to struggle with swimming. I posted at the time and it sounded like it was most likely either an injury (if he startled and rammed into the glass or something?) or something like a liver failure... That's why I didn't allow a full 6 week fallow period, since it didn't really sound like a disease.
The fact that I'm now seeing something kind of similar again has me scared, but I don't know if the timeline makes sense for that.

The hector's that died and the firefish that is currently doing poorly are from 2 different shops, although the second hector's is from the same place as the first one. I am including a video of the current hector's from this morning.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: It's my QT tank but it's set up like a reef with live rock and sand. Using for observational QT and to make sure they're feeding well.
Aquarium water volume: 12ish gallons (Fluval EVO 13.5)
Filtration type: built in
Lighting: built in
How long has the aquarium been established? Originally set up 11/25/22 with wet rock from my LFS; moved and set up with same rocks October '23.
Digital image of the whole aquarium under white light
IMG_20240327_112401.jpg


Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
Temperature: 78.5 (checked with 3 thermometers)
pH: 8.2 API
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.025
Nitrate: 0 API
Phosphorus: 0 Salifert

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? (see below)
Are any invertebrates affected? No; I have 4 hermit crabs in the tank which are completely normal. Also corals normal.
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4)
Are the affected fish still feeding? No.
What remedies have you tried so far?
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light -
- if needed, indicate by drawing a line around the area in question.
A short video of the fish (linked YouTube videos work well) - this is perhaps the best information that you can supply, as long as the video is clear.


EDIT TO ADD SOME ADDITIONAL NOTES: I am pretty confident in the accuracy of the nitrate test; I use the same kit on my main display where it reflects changes in nitrate due to my dosing with values that are consistent and sensible. I use this exact kit at least once a week so I am comfortable with the testing procedure/that it isn't expired/that it is shaken sufficiently.

I never saw anything like fish swimming into the current. When I did see the firefish out yesterday he looked great aside from the fact he was breathing heavily and not swimming well; physically there was no sign of damage or faded colour.
 
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vetteguy53081

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I first question ammonia and nitrate level although not an impact unless quite high.
Are you using any Tap water or RODI water only?
For prazi, it appears you did one full dosage and may have needed, yet one more. Typical dosage is. . . . .
To be safe , dose at 80% of recommended and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite. This is a highly recommended step using added aeration
 
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saltcats

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I first question ammonia and nitrate level although not an impact unless quite high.
Are you using any Tap water or RODI water only?
For prazi, it appears you did one full dosage and may have needed, yet one more. Typical dosage is. . . . .
To be safe , dose at 80% of recommended and apply initial dosage known as an interval for 8 days, do a water change and do one more 8 day dose interval
Use airstone with prazi as it does reduce both oxygen and appetite. This is a highly recommended step using added aeration
Using RODI although I don't make my own; I buy it (and my saltwater) from my LFS. Using the same water in my other tank and have no issues. I haven't done a water change or added anything that preceded this event.

For Prazi, do you mean I should have dosed 3 times? I did 1 dose, waited 8 days, and then did the second dose. The second dose was 7 weeks ago, and I didn't see any symptoms or unusual behavior from either fish since then.
 

vetteguy53081

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Using RODI although I don't make my own; I buy it (and my saltwater) from my LFS. Using the same water in my other tank and have no issues. I haven't done a water change or added anything that preceded this event.

For Prazi, do you mean I should have dosed 3 times? I did 1 dose, waited 8 days, and then did the second dose. The second dose was 7 weeks ago, and I didn't see any symptoms or unusual behavior from either fish since then.
You have the right dose as many are confused with intervals, etc. Hopefully oxygen was not reduced enough to cause issues.
Periodically check your purchased water, in particular nitrate, pho and ph as we see many with purchased water that have issues, the LFS isnt even aware of
 

MnFish1

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Using RODI although I don't make my own; I buy it (and my saltwater) from my LFS. Using the same water in my other tank and have no issues. I haven't done a water change or added anything that preceded this event.

For Prazi, do you mean I should have dosed 3 times? I did 1 dose, waited 8 days, and then did the second dose. The second dose was 7 weeks ago, and I didn't see any symptoms or unusual behavior from either fish since then.
It is sometimes required to dose prazipro again (i.e. third time). Additionally, I didn't see you mention any copper treatment in your QT. Which I would have considered given the death in November.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Timeline: I added 1 firefish to the tank 1/20/24. Ate well, really bold and calm. On 1/28/24 I added a Hector's goby. This fish yawned and flashed a couple of times, and then the firefish began to yawn as well so I dosed with PraziPro following directions on this forum (first dose 2.5ml on 1/30; follow up dose 2.5ml on 2/7). Haven't noticed any yawning or flashing since then, both fish were doing really well.

The firefish especially eats great; hector's goby doesn't seem to take anything I offer but he has plumped up significantly since I got him and looks in good condition, active and swims well.

The fish were due to move from this QT tank to my big tank on 3/13 after a 45 day observational period, but this got delayed when the main display developed ostreopsis dinos (resolving well with UV).

Sometime last week the firefish didn't seem to be eating quite as well but still good - he was still very vigorous in his pursuit of food and ate enthusiastically, but would maybe only eat 3 pieces of frozen food and then lose interest whereas up until then he would keep eating until I decided he'd had plenty (his stomach would get big).

He started hiding a lot and only coming out when I offered food. A couple of days ago he stopped coming out at all and I was very concerned; he came out finally yesterday but was breathing very heavily and did not take any food I offered (tried frozen mysis and cyclopod).
He seemed to have some difficulty swimming but stayed upright, and then rested on the sand for a while but up on his fins. I could not see any sign of injury on him, or any cloudiness/spots. I wouldn't say he was breathing rapidly, just very heavily with a very open mouth.
No pics or video unfortunately, and I haven't seen him this morning.
The other fish seems fine as far as I can tell.

Last wet thing I added was 3 coral frags on 3/16. Before that nothing since 1/25.

I have had one of the 2 outputs on the tank directed towards the surface the entire time, and have had an airstone running in the back chamber since the initial prazi dosing to help with oxygenation; I moved the second nozzle to also point upwards yesterday when I noticed the heavy breathing just in case it was an oxygen issue.

One final note on this tank: I did have a hector's goby in there previously (added 11/24/23; died 12/22/23). He also went from being very active and normal looking to acting reclusive and then not eating, seeming to struggle with swimming. I posted at the time and it sounded like it was most likely either an injury (if he startled and rammed into the glass or something?) or something like a liver failure... That's why I didn't allow a full 6 week fallow period, since it didn't really sound like a disease.
The fact that I'm now seeing something kind of similar again has me scared, but I don't know if the timeline makes sense for that.

The hector's that died and the firefish that is currently doing poorly are from 2 different shops, although the second hector's is from the same place as the first one. I am including a video of the current hector's from this morning.

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: It's my QT tank but it's set up like a reef with live rock and sand. Using for observational QT and to make sure they're feeding well.
Aquarium water volume: 12ish gallons (Fluval EVO 13.5)
Filtration type: built in
Lighting: built in
How long has the aquarium been established? Originally set up 11/25/22 with wet rock from my LFS; moved and set up with same rocks October '23.
Digital image of the whole aquarium under white light
IMG_20240327_112401.jpg


Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
Temperature: 78.5 (checked with 3 thermometers)
pH: 8.2 API
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.025
Nitrate: 0 API
Phosphorus: 0 Salifert

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? (see below)
Are any invertebrates affected? No; I have 4 hermit crabs in the tank which are completely normal. Also corals normal.
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4)
Are the affected fish still feeding? No.
What remedies have you tried so far?
Digital image of the fish with the health issue, taken under white light -
- if needed, indicate by drawing a line around the area in question.
A short video of the fish (linked YouTube videos work well) - this is perhaps the best information that you can supply, as long as the video is clear.


EDIT TO ADD SOME ADDITIONAL NOTES: I am pretty confident in the accuracy of the nitrate test; I use the same kit on my main display where it reflects changes in nitrate due to my dosing with values that are consistent and sensible. I use this exact kit at least once a week so I am comfortable with the testing procedure/that it isn't expired/that it is shaken sufficiently.

I never saw anything like fish swimming into the current. When I did see the firefish out yesterday he looked great aside from the fact he was breathing heavily and not swimming well; physically there was no sign of damage or faded colour.

Just some general observations:

- your prazipro dose was a bit low. It should have been 2.9 ml to treat 12 gallons net volume.
- I'm not a fan of Hector's gobies. They require a lot of microfauna to feed on, and they are listed as "hardy" by a lot of web sites, but I'm not of the same opinion. That said, your "QT" isn't as bare as most usually are, so it hopefully was finding enough to eat through general browsing.
- Don't bother chasing water quality issues. You have good aeration, and any other water quality issue bad enough to kill fish would have already killed your corals.

Does the timeline line up that the corals could have brought in some gill disease that killed the firefish?
 
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saltcats

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Just some general observations:

- your prazipro dose was a bit low. It should have been 2.9 ml to treat 12 gallons net volume.
- I'm not a fan of Hector's gobies. They require a lot of microfauna to feed on, and they are listed as "hardy" by a lot of web sites, but I'm not of the same opinion. That said, your "QT" isn't as bare as most usually are, so it hopefully was finding enough to eat through general browsing.
- Don't bother chasing water quality issues. You have good aeration, and any other water quality issue bad enough to kill fish would have already killed your corals.

Does the timeline line up that the corals could have brought in some gill disease that killed the firefish?
Thanks; I'll make a note of that dosage for future reference! I'm not 100% certain of the tank's actual volume, how risky is it to overdose prazi? It's definitely more than 10 gallons in there, but not sure precisely.

I agree on the Hector's, I wasn't actually planning to get the second one, but I'd observed him for a few weeks at the LFS and he seemed like he was getting skinnier every time. I know buying a fish in poor health is not a great idea but I felt if he was to have a chance it would be in a tank with some more microfauna to feed on, and he does seem to have improved significantly. I see him poop regularly. The new one also did pick at mysis initially when added to the tank; I think he's just finding enough by himself that he isn't interested anymore. That's also why I left a lot of algae growth on the back and sides.

It probably does - I added the corals on the 16th so it's been about 10 days. I know adding anything wet to the tank is a potential risk but I was under the impression it was really unlikely to actually come in on corals! That's upsetting.
The frags came from 2 different coral vendors. I don't know if they keep fish in their systems (probably) but there were no fish in the displays.
Should I treat with prazi again, in light of that? Or would you recommend something else.
 
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saltcats

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@Jay Hemdal Couple more questions for you -

I have gone ahead and picked up coppersafe to have on hand. I will set up a hospital tank today ready to pull the fish into if you think it sounds like I need to do copper; or if you think doing 2 more doses of Prazi in a tank I've already dosed twice won't be effective.
The hector's has been yawning some today.

Are there any special considerations for a Hector's goby (and firefish if I find him) in a copper treatment/bare hospital tank? I guess we'll find out if he takes frozen.... As I said I have frozen cyclops pods, and I also have masstick on hand.
Should I add some inert sand (I have caribsea naturals freshwater sand) for him?

I'm sure you've addressed this before but I didn't find it flicking through the QT protocol thread; I do not currently have a copper test. Is the dosing instructions on the bottle accurate enough to at least get me started? Since I'm starting the hospital tank fresh, I will be sure to accurately record the exact water volume.

Thanks so much for the help!
 

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@Jay Hemdal Couple more questions for you -

I have gone ahead and picked up coppersafe to have on hand. I will set up a hospital tank today ready to pull the fish into if you think it sounds like I need to do copper; or if you think doing 2 more doses of Prazi in a tank I've already dosed twice won't be effective.
The hector's has been yawning some today.

Are there any special considerations for a Hector's goby (and firefish if I find him) in a copper treatment/bare hospital tank? I guess we'll find out if he takes frozen.... As I said I have frozen cyclops pods, and I also have masstick on hand.
Should I add some inert sand (I have caribsea naturals freshwater sand) for him?

I'm sure you've addressed this before but I didn't find it flicking through the QT protocol thread; I do not currently have a copper test. Is the dosing instructions on the bottle accurate enough to at least get me started? Since I'm starting the hospital tank fresh, I will be sure to accurately record the exact water volume.

Thanks so much for the help!
I would not rely on the levels produced by the bottle - One issue with this is (unless you know the exact volume of water) - you can over or undershoot. If you add let's say 9 gallons to the tank - then you know you have 9 gallons. BUT - you still need the levels - because the measurements from the bottle might not have been correct, etc etc. The recommendation is a Hanna copper checker (High level).

I don't see a reason not to add an inert sand - many people add that in a small container - as compared to covering the whole tank bottom.

If you set up a hospital tank - and treat (which I would recommend) - remember that your main tank will need a fallow period (the number of days partly depends on the protocol you choose - I tend to use 70 days - with a 30 day observation period.

Hope this helps! - Lets see what @Jay Hemdal has to say!
 

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@Jay Hemdal Couple more questions for you -

I have gone ahead and picked up coppersafe to have on hand. I will set up a hospital tank today ready to pull the fish into if you think it sounds like I need to do copper; or if you think doing 2 more doses of Prazi in a tank I've already dosed twice won't be effective.
The hector's has been yawning some today.

Are there any special considerations for a Hector's goby (and firefish if I find him) in a copper treatment/bare hospital tank? I guess we'll find out if he takes frozen.... As I said I have frozen cyclops pods, and I also have masstick on hand.
Should I add some inert sand (I have caribsea naturals freshwater sand) for him?

I'm sure you've addressed this before but I didn't find it flicking through the QT protocol thread; I do not currently have a copper test. Is the dosing instructions on the bottle accurate enough to at least get me started? Since I'm starting the hospital tank fresh, I will be sure to accurately record the exact water volume.

Thanks so much for the help!

Dosing copper (coppersafe or copper power only) can be done without a test kit IF you know the EXACT tank water volume, but there is still some risk that the copper will be too high or too low, and you have no way to check that without a Hanna checker.

Just off the cuff, I'd say try another prazi treatment first. If the symptoms abate, then dose it again in 8 days. If the symptoms don't change, then it is more likely that the issue is a protozoan, and copper would be needed.
 
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Dosing copper (coppersafe or copper power only) can be done without a test kit IF you know the EXACT tank water volume, but there is still some risk that the copper will be too high or too low, and you have no way to check that without a Hanna checker.

Just off the cuff, I'd say try another prazi treatment first. If the symptoms abate, then dose it again in 8 days. If the symptoms don't change, then it is more likely that the issue is a protozoan, and copper would be needed.
Thanks so much! The hector's is still eating really well in that tank and I am loathe to move him to a barren tank if I can at all help it.

To confirm - 4 total doses of prazi in the same tank is still effective? I understand the prazi has a limited number of uses before the bacteria consume it too fast to be useful; these would be my third and fourth dose in this setup.

I can get an API copper test locally if that is good enough (looked it up and I don't love how hard it looks to read...) Otherwise I'll try to source a Hanna checker in good time.
 

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Thanks so much! The hector's is still eating really well in that tank and I am loathe to move him to a barren tank if I can at all help it.

To confirm - 4 total doses of prazi in the same tank is still effective? I understand the prazi has a limited number of uses before the bacteria consume it too fast to be useful; these would be my third and fourth dose in this setup.

I can get an API copper test locally if that is good enough (looked it up and I don't love how hard it looks to read...) Otherwise I'll try to source a Hanna checker in good time.

Yes, there is diminishing returns from using prazi due to bacterial growth, but that typically kicks in about the fifth dose or so.
 
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saltcats

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Hi Jay

The Hector's goby seems to be doing well still, behaving normally and picking at things all day long. Still seeing occasional yawns from him; is that to be expected at this point in the treatment?
The first PraziPro dose at 2.9ml in 12 gallons was Wednesday evening.


A second question for you, unfortunately.
Since these 2 fish had 'finished' their QT period and were due to enter my display at any point, I believe I may have broken QT and contaminated my display before these symptoms appeared. Can't recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure I used the same feeding tongs, although I did rinse under hot tap water between the QT and display.

My possum wrasse in my display (only fish) might be showing symptoms now :( I've had him since April last year.
I can grab a video after work, but in the meantime - I've seen 2 yawns from him since last night, and he is doing an occasional kind of twitching movement. Still eating well and acting pretty normal otherwise... Does this still sound like flukes to you? I can prazi this tank as well if so.

I have UV running on the display for dinos, do I need to shut that off for prazi?

Is there any reason not to go ahead and do 3 rounds of prazi on each tank, to be extra sure I got them all?

Appreciate it!
 

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Hi Jay

The Hector's goby seems to be doing well still, behaving normally and picking at things all day long. Still seeing occasional yawns from him; is that to be expected at this point in the treatment?
The first PraziPro dose at 2.9ml in 12 gallons was Wednesday evening.


A second question for you, unfortunately.
Since these 2 fish had 'finished' their QT period and were due to enter my display at any point, I believe I may have broken QT and contaminated my display before these symptoms appeared. Can't recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure I used the same feeding tongs, although I did rinse under hot tap water between the QT and display.

My possum wrasse in my display (only fish) might be showing symptoms now :( I've had him since April last year.
I can grab a video after work, but in the meantime - I've seen 2 yawns from him since last night, and he is doing an occasional kind of twitching movement. Still eating well and acting pretty normal otherwise... Does this still sound like flukes to you? I can prazi this tank as well if so.

I have UV running on the display for dinos, do I need to shut that off for prazi?

Is there any reason not to go ahead and do 3 rounds of prazi on each tank, to be extra sure I got them all?

Appreciate it!

While fluke eggs can be transferred between tanks, the most common species for this to happen with is Neobenedenia (their eggs have sticky tendrils) and your issue seems more like gill flukes. Rinsing with hot water pretty much eliminates that issue.

Some yawning, twitching and scratching can be expected, fish do that if any particles land on them or get into their gills. I can't tell you exactly at what point those symptoms become treatable, it is just too variable.

I'd wait on treating the main tank until the symptoms become more definite.

Yes, the general advice is to turn off the UV when dosing with prazi.

Jay
 

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