pH difference between Nopox and All4Reef/NP Bacter Balance

[bubbgee]

Anyone else seen a drop or suppression in pH when using All4Reef/NP Bacter Balance combination? Any way you are able to resolve this?

I switched over from Nopox to Tropic Marin and am experiencing this suppression. I have been using Kalk via ATO which I am able to hit 8.12 with NoPox but the pH seems suppressed for the Tropic Marin combination. My Alk is high due to the current set up and I will need to do a water change to reset and I disabled All4Reef dosing for now. I do have a protein skimmer with CO2 scrubber but this is ineffective (even after replacing the media). Opened doors and windows do not work and I also tried an external line to the skimmer and did not work either. Only Kalk is able to raise pH in my current set up.

I know I shouldn't chase pH but the corals seem more happier (polyp extension, colors) close to 8.1 pH vs 7.7

Any strategy or mitigations to raise pH left for me to do at this point? Or is this just an issue for AIO tanks and having a sump/refugium is my next step here (which I plan to have once I upgrade the tank).

 

[Formulator]

NOPOX can lower pH as can any carbon dosing regimen. Under aerobic conditions CO2 is produced during the bacteria’s consumption of the organic carbon source. CO2 (carbonic acid in water) will lower the pH.

2CH3OH + 3O2 → 2CO2 + 4H2O

In general regarding your struggle with pH, I suspect the air exchange may be insufficient. So whether inside air or outside air, CO2 scrubbed or not, if there isn’t enough gas exchange with the water, your pH will struggle. The best way to test this is with a controlled experiment. If confirmed, you can at least stop chasing your tail and focus on how to improve the gas exchange in your system.

Take a cup of tank water and measure the pH. Aerate the water in the cup with an airstone and see if the pH comes up higher than what you achieve in your tank. Do the same thing with a fresh cup of tank water outside the house. If the pH rises in either environment, you know you have an aeration issue to fix in the tank. If the pH rise is greater outside, you know there would be some benefit of pulling outside air or using the CO2 scrubber. I know you’ve tried these things already, but it may be that the skimmer is too small to provide enough gas exchange.

 

[bubbgee]

Let me try that.

What I did do previously is put an oversized airstone in the AIO chamber and I didn't see any significant change. At least some more data could provide to be helpful.

Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

AFR has hardly any pH lowering effect. It is identical to dosing bicarbonate for alk.

All carbon dosing products will lower pH as they all produce CO2, and to some extent, the pH lowering/CO2 produced is an indication of how much effect it is having.

Of course, one can offset pH drops in lots of ways, but looking for a carbon dosing product that lowers pH least will not be productive, IMO.

 

[bubbgee]

AFR has hardly any pH lowering effect. It is identical to dosing bicarbonate for alk.

All carbon dosing products will lower pH as they all produce CO2, and to some extent, the pH lowering/CO2 produced is an indication of how much effect it is having.

Of course, one can offset pH drops in lots of ways, but looking for a carbon dosing product that lowers pH least will not be productive, IMO.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll resume AFR as soon as I bring down Alk. Waiting for new salt coming this Thursday.

 

[dmsc2fs]

AFR has hardly any pH lowering effect. It is identical to dosing bicarbonate for alk.

All carbon dosing products will lower pH as they all produce CO2, and to some extent, the pH lowering/CO2 produced is an indication of how much effect it is having.

Of course, one can offset pH drops in lots of ways, but looking for a carbon dosing product that lowers pH least will not be productive, IMO.

I think the key here is he switched from Kalk to AFR. Kalk would increase PH and replacing it with AFR would drop PH due to removing Kalk vice AFR.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think the key here is he switched from Kalk to AFR. Kalk would increase PH and replacing it with AFR would drop PH due to removing Kalk vice AFR.

Yes, that certainly is likely.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I hardly noticed if any pH drop using AFR but using TM bacto-ballance the pH drop was quite noticeable. So stopped using AFR and bacto-ballance all together. Just dripping kalk 24/7 and pretty much got the dkh dialed in within a .1 and just dosing minor and traces.

 

[bubbgee]

I hardly noticed if any pH drop using AFR but using TM bacto-ballance the pH drop was quite noticeable. So stopped using AFR and bacto-ballance all together. Just dripping kalk 24/7 and pretty much got the dkh dialed in within a .1 and just dosing minor and traces.

Thanks that seems to confirm my suspicion. I do like carbon dosing since nutrients are high. Maybe I am better off using Nopox instead?

I am sold on the bacterial benefits of Tropic Marin carbon dosing products though.

 

[bubbgee]

I think the key here is he switched from Kalk to AFR. Kalk would increase PH and replacing it with AFR would drop PH due to removing Kalk vice AFR.

I am aware of it, I was not expecting that much of a drop unfortunately which is why I posed the question.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

Thanks that seems to confirm my suspicion. I do like carbon dosing since nutrients are high. Maybe I am better off using Nopox instead?

I am sold on the bacterial benefits of Tropic Marin carbon dosing products though.

Imo I've read to many ppl having bacteria issues with nopox they use ethanol in it and to unpredictable imo. Lots report cyano break outs and such. I myself love 98% of Tropic Marin products and I do keep elimi-np, Plus-np and bacto-ballance on hand. As for using their products I do so, but only when needed. Bacto-ballance for me was just to un-nerving where I couldn't see (test n&p) on Hanna checkers plus it greatly reduced the pH. On the other hand I'll use plus NP the odd time when P is dropping off to low for my liking, and I'll dose basically to feed the corals and that's it. Nitrate does nothing for my system and if memory serves me correctly the nitrogen they add doesn't show up in hobby test kits but the phosphate will. I'll dose it for a few days and generally the N shows a bit of a lowered effect and so does the Phosphate. With TM phosphate the corals will have ease in up take as it takes a lot of time to rise due to the way the bacteria work. Elimi-np I as well will use it when P starts to rise over my comfort zone and it does a great job to slowly drop n&p for sure, but I'll only dose 2 days and that's it. That seems to keep my system under control.

I love TM as already mentioned but I'll also use Brightwell neophos as I'm guaranteed that if I want to bring the phosphate up from say .07 to .10 I'll add it and sure enough it'll be dead on without the wait.

I'll wrap this up quickly ok.

I've had great success with plus NP and elimi-np but it takes to long to work. At times the system was riding the razors edge and to me that's to close to a crash or spuring on some nasties like dinos and cyano or God knows whatever else. I do keep AFR on hand and mix it myself but with summer being hot and having the axton and everything closed up it doesn't help my low pH levels. I hear Lou Ekus from TM say some tanks will sit at 7.8 pH and do fine at that but for me I could see the corrals not doing so great at 7.8 ... Id be getting alerts sent to my phone from my apex saying the pH is below 7.8 way to many times and knew I needed to take another approach at pH. Kalk has done the trick, sure I don't see 8.3 but I'll see 8.25 some days but my lows never fall under 8.0 during the night so I'm good with that.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

Let me try that.

What I did do previously is put an oversized airstone in the AIO chamber and I didn't see any significant change. At least some more data could provide to be helpful.

Thanks!

Adding an air stone is a good idea it won't fix the problem as your air pump is sucking in the rooms CO2 so your going know where. I too have an AIO and yes it can be a struggle and I deal with the exact same thing that your going through. I don't need a CO2 scrubber as it's a waste of money into for what we have. I have an air line running outside and yes it does work or helps to a point it does help regardless, and your pH will show that over time however small of a rise it may be.

Maybe get a doser, I picked up a Versa and love the simplicity of it. Some dose at night where I dose 24/7 m. You mentioned about your dkh being high? Id personally leave it to lower itself. It shouldn't take to long to do so. @Hans-Werner said to me that you can use AFR and kalk together. I'll let him chime in on using both. One for all the trace elements and the kalk for a lift in pH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks that seems to confirm my suspicion. I do like carbon dosing since nutrients are high. Maybe I am better off using Nopox instead?

I am sold on the bacterial benefits of Tropic Marin carbon dosing products though.

There’s no reason to think NoPOX will have a smaller pH effect than any other carbon dosing product.

 

[Reef Puncher]

I am aware of it, I was not expecting that much of a drop unfortunately which is why I posed the question.

i dose AFR during day, and kalk at night because of the PH drop. you could also dose small amounts of kalk throughout the day if you really needed for ph. or a CO2 scrubber.

 

[GARRIGA]

Wasn't aware NoPox was part of why my pH was lower than desired and will now only use it for emergencies just like I will with LC. Plan is to use AFR for simplicity and solve pH with algae. Might be an option since that tuned properly will remove co2 and avoid the need for Kalk although it could be used in conjunction with should the algae not be sufficient. ATS takes up less space and what I'm trying first next iteration of my test tank.

Last round the combination of Fuge/ATS solved my pH although it bottomed out my nutrients. Perhaps with a controller I can turn off lights when pH exceeds a certain point or auto tested nitrates/phosphates drop below desired. Much safer than placing Kalk on a doser for me. Lets me use AFR without concerns it doesn't help raise pH. Keep it simple. Keep it as natural as can be.

 

[bubbgee]

Adding an air stone is a good idea it won't fix the problem as your air pump is sucking in the rooms CO2 so your going know where. I too have an AIO and yes it can be a struggle and I deal with the exact same thing that your going through. I don't need a CO2 scrubber as it's a waste of money into for what we have. I have an air line running outside and yes it does work or helps to a point it does help regardless, and your pH will show that over time however small of a rise it may be.

Maybe get a doser, I picked up a Versa and love the simplicity of it. Some dose at night where I dose 24/7 m. You mentioned about your dkh being high? Id personally leave it to lower itself. It shouldn't take to long to do so. @Hans-Werner said to me that you can use AFR and kalk together. I'll let him chime in on using both. One for all the trace elements and the kalk for a lift in pH.

I was dosing with limewater using an Apex Dos before I switched to the AFR and Bacter-Balance combo. I have done different ways to dose kalk which proved to be effective. I do plan to switch back to limewater after the salt I ordered arrives and do a water change as the Alk is a bit high at 11.47 (according to trident). The corals are not stressed but they arent as puffy with my pH at 7.71.

I tried dosing both 24/7 and night time and now have a particular schedule that works for me prior to the switch. I decided to switch to deal with trace elements issues that I know my current salt does not have and to deal with stubbornly high PO4 (between .4-.8).

My thought right now is that AFR and TM carbon dosing works for particular environments, just not mine. I will still use some of the stuff I have to correct like NP Plus and Elimi-np as needed.

 

[bubbgee]

i dose AFR during day, and kalk at night because of the PH drop. you could also dose small amounts of kalk throughout the day if you really needed for ph. or a CO2 scrubber.

A CO2 scrubber doesn't work for me. But it's probably related to the protein skimmer size (I use an IceCap AIO 120 which is the only one that can fit).

Yes, I did dose Kalk before switching to AFR/bacterbalance. I will be switching back to limewater as soon as I do a water change.

 

[bubbgee]

There’s no reason to think NoPOX will have a smaller pH effect than any other carbon dosing product.

I understand. It's more anecdotal since my previous set up is limewater and nopox. I do plan to switch back to that after a water change.