Ongoing coral problems

[Pth03001]

Good afternoon everyone,

So, I have been struggling for the last couple of years with growing coral, specifically LPS and SPS type of corals. I have had my 180 gallon (w/trigger 36 sump) running since 2017 and for the first couple years I had some pretty good success. Grown was good, things survived and I was happy. Over the last 2 to 3 years though I have struggled with the die off and dying back of my corals. I have had what I though was pretty "beginner friendly" types of these coral in these tanks to include euphyllia (frogspawn, hammer and torch), duncan, acans, pocillopora, birds nest and favia corals all recede and most colonies end up dying within the tank. Now I know this is pretty vague so to be more specific here are the issues:

Euphullia - coral will not fully extend, will instead retract into its skeleton and slowly die (middle of tank)
Duncan - has been retracted for several years but still alive (middle of tank)
Acans - loss of tissue from the outer edges and then recession until they are mostly skeleton (middle to lower in t tank)
Pocillopora - loss of tissue until ultimate death (higher part of tank)
Birdsnest - loss of tissue -> bleaching -> death (higher part of tank) Also when this event occurs I have cut the tips which are viable and have been able to grow back colonies until it happens again.
Favia - recession and death (just started a new colony which is going well but no signs of growth) (lower in tank, lower flow in area it is palced)

Note: Soft corals appear to be doing fine. Also blasto colony is good but not growing out of its original plug

So, I have decided to reach out in the LPS section of R2R since I would really enjoy having some success in an LPS type of tank and have had so many setbacks that SPS seems like it would be too daunting when I am having losses like this. I wonder what I might be doing wrong and how I could create a healthy environment for the animals I am trying to keep.

Some quick facts about the tank:

180 + sump for a total water volume of approximately 210 gallons
filter socks in use
Older Protein Skimmer which is running well and pulling junk out of the water
Large Marine Pure block in sump
Calcium reactor
2 XF 250 Gyre pumps pushing water across the tank at each other for flow (moving water pretty well but not excessive)
Titanium heater with Apex working and calibrated with several thermometer (calibrated off of a hanna temp probe)
8-bulb ATI dimmable fixture with 5 blue plus, 2 purple plus, 1 Actinic (I prefer the blue look)

Stocking:
Foxface Rabbitfish
Naso
Hippo x2 (they get along)
Blue jaw trigger
7 chromis
2 clowns

Most recent numbers on the tank (which have been stable with the exception of a couple:

Salinity 1.025 (Milwaukee salinity checker after calibration)
Temp - 78. 5
Nitrate - 10 ppm (slowly have raised this from 0 approximately 2 months ago)
Phos - .14 (slowly raised from 0 approximately 2 months ago) (also i know this is a little high but i was also fighting a diatom bloom because of the 0 Nitrate and Phos so I've let it creep up a bit, a little light algae growth but no hair algae and looking to take this number down closer to .08)
Alk - 9.8
Calcium - 450
PH - 8.3
Mag - 1490

Some Possible problems -

Marine Pure block leeching - ICP test a couple years ago showed no metals, its been in the system since 2017
Stray Voltage - I'm gonna check this today but nothing seen on disassembly nor with interaction in tank
Dino - rust colored growth on sand which disappears overnight and returns when lights are on, slight rusty colored growth on rock which I scrub off with a toothbrush. Not slimy and no air bubbles trapped in the junk. Thoughts are that it might be diatoms and they are still present as my tank is readjusting to having nitrates and phosphates. Also did a chemiclean treatment of the tank about 3 weeks ago which got rid of small amounts of cyano which was present.
Pests? I have gotten hitchhikers before and this may have slipped into the tank but I have not been able to see any, will need to keep watching.
Light Intensity - I'm currently running the lights at 90 percent but could it be that they are to bright?
Low nutrients - hang over from low nutrients in tank for years from over aggressive water changed (20% weekly leading to 0 Nitrate or Phos). I have taken the foot off the peddle and started dosing amino acids (acro power) once a week to avoid shocking the system
Low amount of cleanup crew - Over the last couple months I have been adding cleanup crew members in small batches to get my numbers up as the crew got a little thin. I have added in sand sifting snails to help stir the sand bed with minimum results when it comes to the rusty stuff.
Fish - I'm suspicious of my foxface, specifically in terms of the duncan as he seems to pick at it but he also picks at the rock. I haven't seen him going after other stuff unless its already dead and there is some algae on it.
Fish part 2 - should I increase the diversity of the fish, add in wrasses who could take care of pests which i might not be seeing or other helpful fish?

I still feel like this is too vague but I suppose it's a start. Ive been to two different aquarium shops and my numbers have match what I've tested and they have been both stumped. They have recommended dosing nitrofying bacteria for increased bio-diversity, more/different amino acids, more cleanup crew members and dipping corals in a health and wellness supplement for coral.

Any and all suggestions are more then welcome. Though I've been in the hobby for a few minutes I still have a lot to learn and want to do the best for my animals. Also you might notice a lot of 2 months and 6 weeks mentioned throughout this. I have really reinvested my time and brainpower into the tank over these last couple months but i would not say it has been untended to over the last couple years. I was going through the motions of water changes, rock cleanings, equipment cleaning and the rest but I was just getting while not adding any new corals into the tank for the couple of years. OK OK, that's it, now for some pictures of what I am talking about. I included some pictures of the softies which are doing well as an example that not everything is dying.

 

[damsels are not mean]

It really could be the foxface. You might never see it bite the corals but fish behave differently when you are around. Try to set up a camera and watch the footage back layer. The slow recession and eventually wasting away sound characteristic of a predator to me.

Also check out the dying specimens at night with a flashlight. Perhaps there is something in there that Comes out at night and eats it. Don't confuse regular amphipods just walking over the corals or scavenging dead flesh with genuine threats though.

I would not buy a wrasse to deal with "pests". Still don't know what people mean when they advise that. What pests are they talking about? No idea.

 

[Pth03001]

Afternoon,

Thanks for the quick reply! I had heard about wrasses possibly eating flatworms but nothing concrete about that. I have always wanted to add a wrasse or two to the tank so it would be an added benefit if they did that for me but it was just one of the many thoughts going through my head.

On the Foxface front, i have noticed that at night the duncan coral will extend a little bit more out of its skeleton, so that could very well be the issue at hand. I have been suspect of him for several months now and I only just recently learned of their propensity to eat more than just algae. Sad if i'd have to lose him, he's one of the original occupants of the tank but if its for the greater good then it'll have to be done. Now to watch and wait... i might also try to QT him in an acclimation box to see how the corals react.

Also I work overnights while the tank is off so when i get home itll be the perfect opportunity to do some investigating on nocturnal activities!

THANK YOU Damsels are not mean!!!! I'll post updates

 

[mtraylor]

The first thing I would try is to remove the marine pure block and do a water change. Monitor your parms for next 3 weeks or so and see if you get some stable readings for nitrate and phosphate. What does your all stay at? You need to keep stable alk

 

[Pth03001]

Good morning Mtraylor and THANK YOU for the response,

So the Marine Block might be coming out this upcoming weekend as a test (water change weekend). Today I am going to go to a local that does ICP testing for reef tanks and see what my numbers show. Those results should only take a day or two to get back as he does the testing in house. After getting that info in hand I'll make some determinations on taking the marine pure block out. If the ICP test comes back with no metals in it would you still recommend removing the block? As for the Alk, it had been low a couple months ago and that is the first thing that i started changing. So, it had been running at 6 (terrible) and I slowly started dosing Alk to the system which raised it to 9 over the course of a couple weeks. After that and giving some TLC to my Calcium reactor I raised it to where it is now (between 9.8 to 10.5 depending on the day). That was a big issue with the tank and I fear that I may have changed the Alk too quickly during the initial fix part. However, once the tank stabilized at that level (9.8 to 10.5) I added in the new coral which is showing the recession (torch and acan). I possibly added this in too soon after stabilizing the tank so this may have been my impatience/hopefulness winning over my patience.

On a side note, today I dipped the acan, birds nest and torch corals and found nothing alarming attached to them. Arthropods and a couple tiny snails were the only things that fell off the 7 corals which were dipped.

Just wanted to take an extra second to say thank you to Mtraylor and Damsels are not mean for their responses and everyone who took a minute to look over my issues!

 

[mtraylor]

Np. In review of the tank. You have a well established reef with beautiful rock. You dont need that block. I would personally remove it. you can take it out and dry it in the sun and package it up and keep for later if it doesn't just crumble up when you remove it. My guess is that will fall apart.

With Alk at 6. it will be hard to sustain corals for a long period of time at those levels. Especially SPS and LPS. This was most likely a big cause to the detriment of corals as of late.

Getting your calc reactor dialed in is a must. You run it with controller? You shouldn't be using much media from what I see in the tank. You can run it pretty light with the current stock to keep things smooth. If you stable the alk, then most likely everything will be happy moving forward. All corals that have been going through the ups and downs will take time to heal if they do..

 

[sixty_reefer]

You have what it looks like to be heterotrophic dinoflagellates all you may have to do is raise your nitrates to 5 and hold them readable for a few weeks.

 

[Pth03001]

Afternoon Mtraylor and sixty_reefer,

So the Alk was definately a problem for a long while but somehow the bird nest had acclimated to it over the course of time. I think that might be the issue which i am running into with the bird nest as it was one of the corals which experienced the swing back to a more normal Alk range. Hopefully the frags will survive the adjustment. As for the Calcium reactor, I had some problems with the tubing getting clogged but i have fixed this and have been monitoring the tubing for particle obstructions. The reactor is controlled via my apex and it has a PH probe in it which has been holding steady at 6.87. I have a kamoer peristaltic pump running which is pulling 19ml through the system so it is a pretty low dosage and has been keeping the numbers pretty stable. So, I am hopeful that over the course of the next few weeks and months that the increased stability to the tank which i am providing will continue to help bolster the tank. As for the Marine Pure block, I am still considering its utility and I am open to its removal. As you mentioned, the rocks are well seasoned over the course of 5 years and so i dont think that it would have a major effect on the biological diversity of the Nitrifying bacteria. And yes, that thing is gonna fall apart faster then my pickup game in my 20's. (I've had little sleep so I hope thats funny).

I have also received by my results for the ICP test that I got yesterday and wonder if this new information would change any perspectives. The results show that I am low in several trace element categories to include:

Iron (Fe) - 7.01 ppb optimum value 20 ppb
Cobalt (Co) - 0.062 ppb optimum value 2 ppb
Iodine (I) - 4.721 optimum value 50 ppb
Manganese (MN) - 0.202 optimum value 4 ppb
Nickel (Ni) - 0.162 optimum value 5 ppb
Zinc (Zn) - 2.142 optimum value 20 ppb

Now the optimum value calculation uses Florida ocean water as a referenced material. With that being said and seeing the low numbers I did start dosing Iodine (Continuum by Reef Basic which I had laying around). I dosed a little bit less then the recommended dosage this first go around and will monitor the results.

And now onto the rusty junk on the bottom of the tank. I was worried that my suspicions might have been correct about having Dino's in the tank. Now, I may just get a cheapo telescope off Craigslist, capture a sample and then further identify the little buggers but I like the idea of keeping the tank running with my nitrates and phos, not dosing something and hoping that the problem will slowly work itself out of the tank. That being said, I have a couple questions. I have a UV sterilizer which i could hook up into the tank after I get a new bulb. It had not been working too well before but I soon came to realize that the interior calcified over time, covered the glass and basically it became useless. I have a little more work to do on that front and a new bulb to get but was curious if that could be a factor to help fight the Dinos. Also, are there any other methods which one would recommend when it comes to these little buggers?

Lastly, I will be getting a cheap camera to monitor the tank when I am away so that I can see if this foxface is behaving badly while I'm not looking. That and a headlamp with a red lamp so i can spy on the tank at night.

More to come and THANK YOU EVERYONE for the help!

 

[Pth03001]

I said telescope when I meant microscope.... I'm pretty tired.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Afternoon Mtraylor and sixty_reefer,

So the Alk was definately a problem for a long while but somehow the bird nest had acclimated to it over the course of time. I think that might be the issue which i am running into with the bird nest as it was one of the corals which experienced the swing back to a more normal Alk range. Hopefully the frags will survive the adjustment. As for the Calcium reactor, I had some problems with the tubing getting clogged but i have fixed this and have been monitoring the tubing for particle obstructions. The reactor is controlled via my apex and it has a PH probe in it which has been holding steady at 6.87. I have a kamoer peristaltic pump running which is pulling 19ml through the system so it is a pretty low dosage and has been keeping the numbers pretty stable. So, I am hopeful that over the course of the next few weeks and months that the increased stability to the tank which i am providing will continue to help bolster the tank. As for the Marine Pure block, I am still considering its utility and I am open to its removal. As you mentioned, the rocks are well seasoned over the course of 5 years and so i dont think that it would have a major effect on the biological diversity of the Nitrifying bacteria. And yes, that thing is gonna fall apart faster then my pickup game in my 20's. (I've had little sleep so I hope thats funny).

I have also received by my results for the ICP test that I got yesterday and wonder if this new information would change any perspectives. The results show that I am low in several trace element categories to include:

Iron (Fe) - 7.01 ppb optimum value 20 ppb
Cobalt (Co) - 0.062 ppb optimum value 2 ppb
Iodine (I) - 4.721 optimum value 50 ppb
Manganese (MN) - 0.202 optimum value 4 ppb
Nickel (Ni) - 0.162 optimum value 5 ppb
Zinc (Zn) - 2.142 optimum value 20 ppb

Now the optimum value calculation uses Florida ocean water as a referenced material. With that being said and seeing the low numbers I did start dosing Iodine (Continuum by Reef Basic which I had laying around). I dosed a little bit less then the recommended dosage this first go around and will monitor the results.

And now onto the rusty junk on the bottom of the tank. I was worried that my suspicions might have been correct about having Dino's in the tank. Now, I may just get a cheapo telescope off Craigslist, capture a sample and then further identify the little buggers but I like the idea of keeping the tank running with my nitrates and phos, not dosing something and hoping that the problem will slowly work itself out of the tank. That being said, I have a couple questions. I have a UV sterilizer which i could hook up into the tank after I get a new bulb. It had not been working too well before but I soon came to realize that the interior calcified over time, covered the glass and basically it became useless. I have a little more work to do on that front and a new bulb to get but was curious if that could be a factor to help fight the Dinos. Also, are there any other methods which one would recommend when it comes to these little buggers?

Lastly, I will be getting a cheap camera to monitor the tank when I am away so that I can see if this foxface is behaving badly while I'm not looking. That and a headlamp with a red lamp so i can spy on the tank at night.

More to come and THANK YOU EVERYONE for the help!

Your icp show’s that you have all the elements necessary to build coral skeleton, did you test your tank for tissue building elements? The icp is basically useless in this situations

 

[undermind]

Hey @Pth03001 I'm sorry for the troubles, I know it's frustrating. But your post is very thorough and gives us lots of information to work with, so that's super helpful.

With these perplexing issues where the parameters seem reasonable, I think the tendency for people is to pick out a random param that isn't to their liking and tell you to tweak it by 2 ppm. This is pretty much never the solution.

I often think about the old sayings like "your tank isn't mature enough for x coral" or "I would wait a year before adding x coral". No one seems to ask the question of what is tank maturity though? I'm a firm believer that tank "maturity" is actually the presence of a community of microorganisms (microbiome). Bacteria diversity, little critters, etc. In reality, there isn't an association between a diverse microbiome and time, because you can establish it on day one if you put the right stuff in your tank. Conversely, I think that there can be cases where a tank loses diversity over the years, heading toward a place that people would consider the opposite of "mature" even though the tank is "old". I think that certain types of bacterias can begin to dominate, resulting in a decrease in diversity. This is also fueled by events like bottoming out nutrients, as has happened in your case.

Many, many others are going through the same thing (there are TONS of similar posts). There's more to our reefs than params. I've experienced the exact thing you're going through. But I made a shift from chasing numbers to a dedication of adding bacterial diversity and that marked a turning point for my current tank that went from a place where things withered away to a place where SPS thrive. It is night and day. I've seen the same thing in other cases here as well.

As far adding diversity, getting a hold of true marine-based life is the punch in the face these tanks need. I haven't experienced cases where bacteria in a bottle products produced the same results, ever. You can get your hands on straight-from-the-ocean life from kpaquatics.com, ipsf.com and aquabiomics.com. Those are may favorites.

Not only has this method turned my tank around, I've re-added these things when corals started looking off and I'm seeing signs of what I perceive as dwindling diversity. The improvements you see in corals after re-adding marine-based diversity is more effective than attempts I've made with bottled products like amino, trace element, coral food, etc.

There are certainly a lot of possible causes for what you're seeing in your tank. The above is what I would do (and have done) if it were me.

 

[sixty_reefer]

With these perplexing issues where the parameters seem reasonable, I think the tendency for people is to pick out a random param that isn't to their liking and tell you to tweak it by 2 ppm. This is pretty much never the solution.

there is more knowledge involved behind someone suggesting increasing the nutrient than suggesting adding random bacteria to resolve this particular problem in my opinion.

 

[undermind]

there is more knowledge involved behind someone suggesting increasing the nutrient than suggesting adding random bacteria to resolve this particular problem in my opinion.

More knowledge? Are you suggesting there's more knowledge behind your suggestion of telling someone to raise their nitrates to 5 when they stated that they have nitrate of 10 in their original post?

 

[sixty_reefer]

More knowledge? Are you suggesting there's more knowledge behind your suggestion of telling someone to raise their nitrates to 5 when they stated that they have nitrate of 10 in their original post?

I have done a rookie mistake, I haven’t seen the 10ppm nitrates comments just the low nutrients for some reason, this removes the possibility for dinoflagellates and introduces a possibility for Cyanobacteria, the microscope may confirm that, if in fact Cyanobacteria the route could be stop acropower, most amino acids contain carbohydrates That can be transformed into glucose, depending on how much the op is doing weekly some larger amounts of glucose can cause nutrients swings, Cyanobacteria can also utilise glucose as a energy source.
I missed that both N and P were detectable.

 

[dthom]

It is always frustrating when we have these long term problems that we are so diligently trying to solve and it feels like we are getting no where! Hang in there.

It sounds like you are headed in the right direction.
In my experience it can take a long time for a tank to recover from past issues.
Getting your phosphate and nitrates up is good and in my opinion will make a big difference.
Now the big part is keeping them up and keeping your alk, mag and calcium stable.

May have to ditch the foxface.

 

[Pth03001]

Just wanted to say a quick thank you to undermind, sixty_reefer and dthom for the posts and ideas. I want to type more right now but I work overnights and have to go out the door in a couple minutes. You have all given me so much to think about and try and some of it needs some reflections time. In a quick aside, I will be doing a water change this weekend, test and the like. However I believe I might change it up a little but and go OCD on it a little but. I plan on purchasing a small hard line tube, attaching that to a similarity small tube (maybe 1/4" diameter) and then tooth brush the rock with the water flowing out of the tank as I do it. I likely will also do this (minus the toothbrush) on the sand bed. As for Cyano, I did a chemiclean treatment of the tank approximately 3 weeks ago and saw no change to the rusty stuff on the sand... thats why it got me thinking about dino or diatoms. Still thinking on that account and waiting to get this stuff under a microscope.

Well, now I'm late for work. I'll post my weekly tests this weekend and updates as well. Thank you all so much and have a good night.

 

[Pth03001]

Also, quick question regarding the live rock. I couldn't do that for at least a month as things stand right now but I wanted to know whether you'd recommend placing that in the main display or in the refugium? Thanks undermind and look forward to hearing more! dang it now im late