Octopus has eggs - any info or tips?

[mc-nuggs]

Wasn't going to post this for fear of things going badly, but decided to post anyway because it could help someone else have success in the future.

I acquired 2 Pacific brown octopus 1 month ago on Sept 8th 2023. Same day shipping. One died the next day, the other survived ("Nugward").

I noticed on October 10th (one week ago) that Nugward was repeatedly pushing my finger away and that's when I spotted the first of the eggs (~10). The next day, there were a lot more (~20).

I went out and bought a 13 gal aquarium, and caulked a 150 micron mesh over the overflow, for this tank to be a dedicated octopus baby tank.

I had Nugward in a blacked-out large breeder box which had been hanging on the inside of my 100 gallon reef tank. My foxface and princess parrotfish would scrape algae off the outside of the breeder box, and the eggs would probably fit through the slits in the sides, so I moved the entire breeder box into the 13 gallon tank (the eggs are also fixed to the breeder box wall).

After moving Nugward + eggs + breeder box to the new tank, there are even more eggs on the wall, ~40 if I had to guess

Am I correct in assuming they are fertilized since they have not gone bad by now? Does anyone know the gestation time of Pacific brown octopus eggs? I literally can't find any specific info on this topic-- maybe I'm blind.

I am not prepared to take care of an entire brood of baby octopus, so any legitimate info on how long I have before this potential time bomb goes off is appreciated.

 

[mc-nuggs]

Forgot to mention, I attempt to feed Nugward once a day. I bought a large dungeoness crab live from a local sea market, chopped it up and stored it in my freezer. I cut a piece off, thaw it in a small cup of tank water, and pass it to Nugward via tongs. I used to feed Nugward by hand, but Nugward automatically pushes my fingers away now that she is on egg-watch 24/7. Sometimes, she pushes the tongs and piece of crab away, From what I can directly observe, she at least eats the crab every other day + I try to pull any uneaten food out the next day.

There are no other tank mates other than a few amphipods. No hermit crabs, etc.

I'll continue to update this thread, even if it all ends badly. Again, if that happens, maybe someone else can learn a better way from my endeavor.

 

[Reefacist]

Interesting…let’s see where are octoegg experts

 

[Stomatopods17]

Probs better to ask about this on tonmo forums.

Hopefully someone here chimes in but there's specialist over there that can help you out with breeding experience.

 

[Mangimi]

Your octopus won't feed until the larvae hatch and soon after hatching she will die. That's the sad end of an octopus mother. Sorry to say this, but there's nothing you can do to save your octopus. Stop feeding her, you're just polluting the water.

If the eggs develop eyes you'll see if they are fertilized or not. I don't know how long the gestation period is, my guess is between one and two month for a smaller warm water octo.

If you can get hold of copepod naupli, you could try to raise the larvae. The chances of success aren't high, but you could try.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Am I correct in assuming they are fertilized since they have not gone bad by now? Does anyone know the gestation time of Pacific brown octopus eggs?

They are probably fertile (Octopuses can store sperm; some people report that octopuses are sometimes taken from their egg-guarding in the wild and will lay another, small batch in our aquariums as a result) - if you know the actual species (Pacific Brown Octopus is name used for a number of different species), then we may be able to help you figure out how long you have. Without knowing the species, anywhere from ~38-50+ days from the day they are laid until they hatch.

Regardless, this means your adult octopus is on her way out (octopuses die shortly after laying eggs).

That said, for care:

While knowing the specific species of octopus could be helpful (Pacific Brown Octopus could indicate a number of different species), it seems that most small species that could fall under that name are referred to as "small egg" octopus species. To my knowledge, no "small egg" octopus species have been successfully reared to adulthood in captivity as of yet. I've heard that the best attempts so far have been conducted using crab zoea (baby crabs), but even these were unsuccessful. The general thought so far seems to be offering the hatchlings small quantities of live zooplanktons and crustacean larvae (things like various pods, rotifers, gut-loaded Artemia [BBS], baby shrimp, etc.) multiple times a day and observing closely to see if they are eating/surviving. Again, these should be live foods.

I don't know if this is an issue with octopus or not, but you might want to be careful not to offer too much, as I've heard it can be an issue for cuttlefish (closely related to octopus) where if there are too many feeders in the tank they can stop viewing them as food and then starve to death.

If yours is a "small egg" species, then the young will most likely all die within a few days. If it is a "large egg" species, your odds are much better, but it still depends upon the specific species.

All of that said though, my best advice would be to head over to Tonmo (a forum site similar to this one which focuses on cephalopods, such as octopuses) and ask for advice over there. The forum doesn't seem to be quite as active these days as it used to be, but even if you don't get a reply, you can still look through their forums for some information that might be helpful. Additionally, while I don't know if they would reply, I would suggest reaching out to the University of Chicago's Marine Biology Laboratory (mbl.edu) and see if they would be willing/able to offer any advice, as they actively aquaculture a number of different cephalopods, and (if I remember correctly) they were the first in the world to be able to aquaculture multiple generations of the Pygmy Zebra Octopus (Octopus chierchiae).

I wish I had better advice to offer, but I hope you'll document as much as you can and share it with us here! This sort of thing is always exciting. Good luck!

Cephalopods (Octopus & Cuttlefish):
Mysis/Mysid Shrimp (order Mysida), Amphipods, larval Shrimp (Ghost/Grass Shrimp, Palaemonetes sp., being the most commonly used), and larval Crabs - these are the feeders for cuttlefish and "large egg" octopus species (Artemia are not used for these that I've seen; I've seen it suggested that Molly and/or Guppy fry may work as well, but I can't confirm if they would or not at this point).

For "small egg" octopus species, Artemia (Brine Shrimp) and Crab zoea (larval crabs) were used in one of the two only successful "small egg" rearings I know of (the species that was reared was the Common Octopus, Octopus vulgaris, the crab species used was Maja squinado, the European Spider Crab; the survival rate by the time the octopus larvae reach maturity was 1.5%); it has been suggested that Copepods (no specific pods were mentioned) and Crab zoea are the nutritionally appropriate feeders for these. The other small egg species that was successfully reared was the Giant Pacific Octopus, Enteroctopus dofleini, and it was reared using appropriately sized frozen seafoods (25 settled at 7 months, only 1 survived by 9 months; unfortunately - due to the variety being fed - it's uncertain what in the mix was useful for the young; grated clam and krill have also been tried since unsuccessfully).

Some general aquaculture advice (it's fish oriented, but a lot of it is relatable for cephalopods as well - such as the pelagic-larvae-safe kreisel tanks being ideal):

"Some general advice that might help:
- Have a tank ready to move the larvae into (basically a tank with an air stone, a dim light, and a heater - a kreisel tank is ideal, but not necessary; you don't want a filter, a skimmer, uncovered pumps/powerheads, etc. - it needs to be as pelagic larvae safe as possible).
- Be prepared to catch the young when they hatch (ideally, you'd be able to move the eggs immediately before hatching into the new tank, but I'm assuming you don't know exactly when they'll hatch) - catch them and move them into the larval rearing tank as soon as possible.

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
Assuming you have fertile eggs, the advice I would give is this:
- if possible, get some Parvocalanus crassirostris pods too (rotifers are great, and I would expect the larvae to go for them, but some fish larvae are picky and prefer pods over rotifers - having both seems like a good way to ensure you have good, small foods for them... Artemia and other larger pod species would likely be good to have on hand too for the larvae as they grow.

- Get various sizes of very fine sieves so you can control the size of the feeders being offered to the larvae as/if needed.

- Add phyto directly to the larval rearing tank. It’s a good method of ensuring that the feeders are gut-loaded and healthy, and it makes them easier for the fish to see (better feeding/survival rates are typically observed with this method).
- Observe and note information about the larvae (things like how big the eggs are, how big the larvae are, when the larvae settle, when coloration comes in, etc.) and the larval behaviors (stuff like if they are attracted to light, how they react to light, if they are attracted to certain colors, what feeders they eat and what what sizes of feeders they eat at what days post hatch, what kind of substrate they prefer to settle on, are they cannibalistic, etc.).

- Watch for developmental bottlenecks and issues with your rearing methods.

- A lot of people run into feeder issues their first few times breeding, so I’d have a backup plan in place to be able to get some feeders quickly if you find yourself needing some.

With regards to the sieves and feeder sizes:
- You may need to screen the feed initially to only offer Parvocalanus nauplii.
- Observing the larvae eating when/if possible is important for telling if they are accepting/able to eat the food you are offering them.

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
Generally the main thing to watch for at this stage is a bottleneck where the young start dying off - these usually happen after a few days (day three post hatch seems to be one of the most common bottleneck days for fish that hatch with a yolk they can feed off of - if the rots and phyto don’t provide the proper nutrition for these guys, you might see a die off sometime around here). Some fish run into multiple bottlenecks, including some that happen around/after 2-3 weeks post hatch, so you really need to keep an eye on how things are going. Bottlenecks typically occur because the food the fry is eating isn’t nutritious enough for them, or they’re not interested in eating the food offered, or the food isn’t the proper size for them to eat.

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
if you do run into a bottleneck and lose this batch, don’t get too disappointed by it - this happens frequently in trying to breed a new species (even to the professionals), and every attempt gets one step closer to success.

With regards to the substrate settlement:
- Some species need sand, rock, dark areas, specific colors, or other oddly specific things to settle on/in (from what I've seen, inverts are usually a lot more picky with this), so it may help to have a ledge or cave (PVC should be fine for this, if it's even needed, which I honestly kind of doubt) and a little sand in the larval rearing tank.


That’s all I can think of at the moment - hope it helps!"

And to explain the sieving/screening of nauplii to feed:

Yeah, you'd need to screen the Parvocalanus culture prior to feeding them so that you're only offering the baby Parvocalanus pods (the 1st stage nauplii) to the fish larvae. This is what I was meaning when I brought up sieving the culture if the feeders were too large.

Adult Parvocalanus pods get up to 400 microns, whereas stage 1nauplii are about 40 microns. This means that they should be ~1/10 the size of the adult pods (which looks like it would fit with the ~20% gape rule). So, basically, before offering the feeders to the fish, strain them through a 45 or 50 micron mesh - this ensures that you're only getting the smallest available feeders (those that are small enough to fall through a 45 or 50 micron mesh), which should be more appropriately sized for the larval fish.

As a last note here, with a small egg octopus species, you may be able to try some larger/easier pods than P. crassirostris such as Tigger, Tisbe, or Apocyclops pods, for examples.

 

[kevgib67]

Well this is a first, following.

 

[mc-nuggs]

Thanks for all the info @ISpeakForTheSeas and others! Some of the general tips I had heard before, others like food recommendations for octopus hatchlings I had not.

I also heard that octopus stop eating completely once they start guarding eggs, but Nugward still eats at least every other day. Will update the thread if/when that stops completely.

As far as I know, there are 3 egg locations in the tank. There is the main nest which is guarded by Nugward, but there is a small cluster of about 10 on the far wall inside the breeder box left completely abandoned. Close to it, there was a smaller cluster of about 5 eggs fastened to a small piece of pipe. I put the pipe w/eggs in a smaller, separate breeder cube outside of the main box, since it is easier and less invasive to look at and determine any progress than disturbing Nugward.

Anyway, I realized at work today that I could throw these pipe-eggs under my digital microscope w/out disturbing Nugward + main nest. Here are the pictures I took with my phone of the scope monitor (forgive the reflections of my arms + surrounding room). Not sure what the exact magnification is, but the eggs are roughly the volume of half a grain of rice. This is probably the only time I'll do this, since from here on out, the embryos will probably get macroscopicly visible when looking at the eggs. But it looks like they are fertilized.

No idea what species of Pacific brown octopus Nugward is. I did email the folks I acquired Nugward from; no response yet.

 

[jabberwock]

following

 

[mc-nuggs]

Also, before I forget, the tank has been running a little warm (78 - 83 F) as there has been a heat wave in the area the last 2 weeks. When I get home around 6-7pm,I put a frozen cold pack or RODI ice cubes in the tank to get it down to 80 F, if it is above that temperature.

Everything seems ok so far, not sure if warmer temps will contribute to success or abject failure, but it's definitely a factor, and there's nothing I can do about it since the AC is broken in my apartment

Just wanted to mention it for anyone who finds this thread 10 years from now with the same questions.

First week of eggs existence = kinda warm.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

First week of eggs existence = kinda warm.

78-83F should be alright for temperatures (I don't know with cephalopods, but with fish, a lot of them do better at somewhat higher temps like 83) - higher temps do typically mean faster development/hatching for eggs, though, so it may mean the eggs hatch a few days quicker.

 

[mc-nuggs]

So I found some interesting academic journals and books about raising octopus hatchlings or "paralarvae".

TLDR; the survival rates in labs are abysmal, so much so that no one has any idea how to make breeding octopus commercially viable, hence why they are almost always caught in the wild and sold to aquarists. Also, it seems like a mix of brine shrimp and crab larvae for octopus paralarvae food results in the best chances of survival to adulthood. See the following 2 excerpts about paralarvae diet (attached pictures), taken from "Cephalopod Culture", Springer Science, 2014.

Another interesting find is that octopus eggs have the highest chance of successfully hatching if you leave the mother to tend to the eggs-- ie. removing/separating the mother from the eggs is a bad strategy if you want to maximize the survival rate of the eggs.

Also, I found a funny image in "Cephalopod Behavior 2nd Ed, Cambridge Press, 2018, of a squid reproductive pose which to me looks like a Cthulhu handshake. I'm now going to use the phrase "Ah yes, a good ole Cthulhu handshake" as a euphamism whenever I'm with friends and spicy topics come up.

Does anyone here have any ideas on how I can acquire crab eggs or larvae? I mean, the researchers had to get them from somewhere, and I doubt they personally scuba dived to nab em.

I got lucky with Nugward and was able to feed her frozen Dungeoness crab from the start. Another strange thing is that it is the only food Nugward has ever eaten. I tried feeding thawed krill shrimp twice and both times she threw them back! I may try feeding Dungeoness crab directly to the octopus "paralarvae"-- drop a piece in the tank for a few hours and see what happens. Maybe these little guys are addicted to crab from the start, and it doesn't have to be alive (wishful thinking).

At any rate, I'm going to get some brine shrimp and copepods populating in the tank while I try to figure out what to do about this crab larvae business. In the study, they used snow crab larvae. No clue where I would get that.

 

[Mangimi]

After reading how big a freshly hatched O. vulgaris paralarvae is (1.5-3mm), I'd like to revise my statement. If anything I believe Artemia and copepods are too small. Based on my experience with cuttlefish, they love large prey. Even larger than themselves. I used small freshwater shrimp as live feed and that worked pretty well.

I'm working in aquaculture of marine fish with pelagic larvae and if I have noticed one thing: it's the obsession with n3 fatty acids that's been going on for longer than I live, but on the other hand prey that's 250mikron is considered the same size as prey with 350 mikron. But assume both prey are round and calculate the volume... you're gonna be shocked. Aquaculture science is pretty shady...

 

[Paul B]

I had a bunch hatch out many years ago. Probably in the 80s. I don't remember them living more than a week or so but they wrestled, inked and ate adult brine shrimp. If it happened now I would probably have better luck.

 

[fish farmer]

When I had a similar situation as you, my eggs got very dark before hatching, you could see the eyes and pigment. When they hatched, which was a two day period, the little ones were just pulsing up and down near the surface, planktonic stage. I would expect needing to saturate the area with small live foods. Mine died or were sucked up in my filter in a couple days. It was a tropical species and eggs probably hatched within a months time. I had the octo for about 2 months in my care. Died Halloween night.

 

[Dom]

Also, before I forget, the tank has been running a little warm (78 - 83 F) as there has been a heat wave in the area the last 2 weeks. When I get home around 6-7pm,I put a frozen cold pack or RODI ice cubes in the tank to get it down to 80 F, if it is above that temperature.

Everything seems ok so far, not sure if warmer temps will contribute to success or abject failure, but it's definitely a factor, and there's nothing I can do about it since the AC is broken in my apartment

Just wanted to mention it for anyone who finds this thread 10 years from now with the same questions.

First week of eggs existence = kinda warm.

A frozen cold pack or something similar (I use old water bottles with frozen tap) is perfect for reducing temperature.

I wouldn't use RODI ice cubes. As they melt, your water volume goes up so your salinity will come down. Fortunately, this is temporary. As your water evaporates, total volume of water goes down so salinity will come up.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

Also, before I forget, the tank has been running a little warm (78 - 83 F) as there has been a heat wave in the area the last 2 weeks. When I get home around 6-7pm,I put a frozen cold pack or RODI ice cubes in the tank to get it down to 80 F, if it is above that temperature.

Everything seems ok so far, not sure if warmer temps will contribute to success or abject failure, but it's definitely a factor, and there's nothing I can do about it since the AC is broken in my apartment

Just wanted to mention it for anyone who finds this thread 10 years from now with the same questions.

First week of eggs existence = kinda warm.

your temp needs to be lower. try fans on the water at least. <76.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Another interesting find is that octopus eggs have the highest chance of successfully hatching if you leave the mother to tend to the eggs-- ie. removing/separating the mother from the eggs is a bad strategy if you want to maximize the survival rate of the eggs.

Yeah, the mother helps care for (aerate and clean) the eggs to help them develop healthy and viable. Manual aeration and cleaning with eggs can be done, but - to my understanding - it's difficult, risky, and not nearly as successful typically.

Does anyone here have any ideas on how I can acquire crab eggs or larvae?

Crab/Shrimp eggs or larvae can really only be obtained at this point by breeding the crabs or shrimp yourself. This means that (unless you have a ridiculous number of crabs or shrimp that breed consistently or you can induce spawning in consistently) you'll likely have a tough time maintaining an adequate food supply for your octopus paralarvae.

That said, I'd be curious to see how the paralarvae do on Ghost/Grass Shrimp larvae.

 

[mc-nuggs]

Nugward is still eating, although I noticed today the feeding time has decreased considerably.

Before the eggs, Nugward seemed to feed on a piece of crab for about 5 - 10 minutes before tossing it aside. With eggs, Nugward feeds for maybe 2 minutes before discarding.

Everything going well AFAIK. Seems like there are even more eggs now. Not sure what's up with that. Every time I turn around, there's more eggs! Nugward's going for broke-- all her eggs in one basket!

 

[buruskeee]

Interesting. Following.