Not a Moonshiner debate - But need a little advise on ICP-ms

[14 foot reef]

Not a Moonshiner debate - But need a little advise on ICP-ms
My ICP test came back from Oceamo yesterday, I use them regularly because it easily ties to moonshiner dosing. This test my Floride came back at .50 with Ideal value being 1.3 and reef moonshiners recommended level to be 1.5
My system is 850 gallons and the formula correction dosage is saying 10 days of dosing 321.76 ml per day for 10 days. Thats 6 1/2- 500 ml bottles over 10 days........ That amount is worrying me, would any of you recommend this or send in another ICP or request a second test if they still have my sample.
Any advice would be appreciated

 

[paintman]

Moonshiner here. I use the ATI test from Germany. Andre has a Facebook page. Anyone there will greatfully double check your dosage. I will say that with an 850 gallon tank the dosage sounds about right. I have a 200 gal. and my last correction was 85ml. for 10 days. I think the flouride supplement is very weak thus requiring large doses.

 

[14 foot reef]

Thanks, the amount was a little frightening. Is there a stronger recipe that would require less ml's
7 Bottles was $150.00....Ouch

 

[taricha]

From data that I seen, multiple ICP companies gave similar measurements of Fluorine and they saw similar spikes when a F-containing additive was used. I would expect that a value of 0.5ppm F from oceamo does indicates the F value is well below the 1.3-1.5ppm target value. I'd also be confident that ATI could also replicate that measurement and be a good confirmation.

So the concern to me is simply that the dosing product being sold is ridiculously dilute and expensive for your humongous tank and low F value. Seek out other products to make the adjustment, or search out one of the DIY Fluoride solutions.

That's my perspective, anyway.

 

[14 foot reef]

From data that I seen, multiple ICP companies gave similar measurements of Fluorine and they saw similar spikes when a F-containing additive was used. I would expect that a value of 0.5ppm F from oceamo does indicates the F value is well below the 1.3-1.5ppm target value. I'd also be confident that ATI could also replicate that measurement and be a good confirmation.

So the concern to me is simply that the dosing product being sold is ridiculously dilute and expensive for your humongous tank and low F value. Seek out other products to make the adjustment, or search out one of the DIY Fluoride solutions.

That's my perspective, anyway.

Do you have any sources or links for DIY Fluoride....... I don't come up with any here when I search. Thanks in advance.

 

[taricha]

Do you have any sources or links for DIY Fluoride....... I don't come up with any here when I search. Thanks in advance.

Sodium fluoride is available, see
Loudwolf on amazon etc....

Be careful with fluoride. It can be fairly toxic.

NaF is 45% fluoride by weight, so to add 1 mg/L to 100 liters takes

(1 mg/L x 100 L ) / 0.45 = 222 mg, or 0.2 grams.

You can dissolve up to about 30 grams in a litter of RO/DI.

If you dissolve 10 grams in 1 L, then it is 10 mg/mL NaF and it takes 22 mL of that solution to boost 100 L by 1 mg/L F.

 

[KrisReef]

From data that I seen, multiple ICP companies gave similar measurements of Fluorine and they saw similar spikes when a F-containing additive was used. I would expect that a value of 0.5ppm F from oceamo does indicates the F value is well below the 1.3-1.5ppm target value. I'd also be confident that ATI could also replicate that measurement and be a good confirmation.

So the concern to me is simply that the dosing product being sold is ridiculously dilute and expensive for your humongous tank and low F value. Seek out other products to make the adjustment, or search out one of the DIY Fluoride solutions.

That's my perspective, anyway.

@Randy Holmes-Farley Any advice ?

I have Floride toothpaste that I would use if I was looking at the dollar amount

 

[14 foot reef]

Sodium fluoride is available, see
Loudwolf on amazon etc....

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Thanks for sharing the formula, I will be very careful and raise slowly and triple check my numbers before dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The Loudwolf material is a good choice.

FWIW, I’d be interested to know if any seems different I. The tank after raising the fluoride.

 

[reef_ranch]

This thread begs the question why are these companies selling so much water with their fluoride! Using Randy's recipe at 10g/L all you need is 708ml to raise the fluoride in your 850g 1mg/l. Is it purely profit or is there some other consideration?

 

[taricha]

Is it purely profit or is there some other consideration?

Concentrated fluoride Solutions would have some safety concerns for people.

Also, if I were selling a bottle additive that was of questionable necessity in a tank, I would be nervous about sending an amount / concentration in a bottle where if the user misreads the decimal places they could nuke the tank adding something that they would have been fine doing without.

Also, if I made the bottle cost a zillion dollars, then users would be more hesitant to add larger doses, and would be more conservative with their dosing experiments. So the incentives sort of align there, I guess.

 

[14 foot reef]

Concentrated fluoride Solutions would have some safety concerns for people.

Also, if I were selling a bottle additive that was of questionable necessity in a tank, I would be nervous about sending an amount / concentration in a bottle where if the user misreads the decimal places they could nuke the tank adding something that they would have been fine doing without.

Also, if I made the bottle cost a zillion dollars, then users would be more hesitant to add larger doses, and would be more conservative with their dosing experiments. So the incentives sort of align there, I guess.

Can't argue this philosophy. Good point

 

[penguinexdeus]

Sounds right to me. My fluoride dosing was 30ml a day for 6 days on a 75 gal. Fluoride is what I use the most of by far and I get similar results with both the ATI icp and Oceamo ms.

My tank seems like it has more issues with diatoms/ algae without fluoride and corals perk up more when I do that correction. Don’t know why- it’s just my own observation.

I know it’s controversial but if your moonshining my best recommendation is just ‘trust the process’ and if unsure ask the FB group if looking to deviate from the recommended supplements. The whole method is built around the purity and concentrations the tool uses.

 

[reef_ranch]

Concentrated fluoride Solutions would have some safety concerns for people.

Also, if I were selling a bottle additive that was of questionable necessity in a tank, I would be nervous about sending an amount / concentration in a bottle where if the user misreads the decimal places they could nuke the tank adding something that they would have been fine doing without.

Also, if I made the bottle cost a zillion dollars, then users would be more hesitant to add larger doses, and would be more conservative with their dosing experiments. So the incentives sort of align there, I guess.

You would be nervous. (perhaps rightly so) But I don't think they are. The risk of nuking tanks by misreading a decimal place is present in virtually every product these companies sell. The clue to the motivation lies in the markup.
The $150 the OP paid for less than 20g of the product Loud Wolf sells for $10/113g is an insane margin ($150/$1.77=8484%). I doubt they forced themselves to mark it up that much because they don't want someone to nuke their tank!

 

[paintman]

The Loudwolf material is a good choice.

FWIW, I’d be interested to know if any seems different I. The tank after raising the fluoride.

I can't say it's the flouride alone, because there are other elements required to make the moonshine adjustments. However I can say this is the best looking tank I have ever had by farsince using the shine. Also, before going on the shine my nems never bubbled. Now they do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can't say it's the flouride alone, because there are other elements required to make the moonshine adjustments. However I can say this is the best looking tank I have ever had by farsince using the shine. Also, before going on the shine my nems never bubbled. Now they do.

Yes, that's a problem with using any moonshine tank to justify any given additive. They use a number with dubious utility, but everyone using the method does it, so there's little data on the effect of a given one.

 

[14 foot reef]

Yes, that's a problem with using any moonshine tank to justify any given additive. They use a number with dubious utility, but everyone using the method does it, so there's little data on the effect of a given one.

 

[14 foot reef]

 

[ingchr1]

...just ‘trust the process’...

I prefer to 'trust but verify'.

 

[Reefahholic]

Not a Moonshiner debate - But need a little advise on ICP-ms
My ICP test came back from Oceamo yesterday, I use them regularly because it easily ties to moonshiner dosing. This test my Floride came back at .50 with Ideal value being 1.3 and reef moonshiners recommended level to be 1.5
My system is 850 gallons and the formula correction dosage is saying 10 days of dosing 321.76 ml per day for 10 days. Thats 6 1/2- 500 ml bottles over 10 days........ That amount is worrying me, would any of you recommend this or send in another ICP or request a second test if they still have my sample.
Any advice would be appreciated

That is a correct dose correction for a value that low. Fluoride will saturate somewhat. However, in fast growing systems it is a heavy hitter and may of us dose daily or weekly to prevent large corrections.