NoPox Recipe???

[GoVols]

First off the family on R2R that lost their child and all the people in Texas are in all our thoughts and prayers.

Okay,
I do not have the need to carbon dose anymore... But I have a lot of friends that use NoPox with great success.

From my memory, I believe that Randy has the break down to the NoPox recipe.

I believe it was so many parts of vinegar to so many parts of ethanol.

If so, would the ethanol source, be vodka?

If you anybody has the NoPox recipe, please post it in detail.

Thanks in advance and just want to learn.

Regards, GoVols

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is the rough recipe:

"Mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water."

 

[GoVols]

This is the rough recipe:

"Mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water."

Randy,
Thank You

 

[AdamNC]

Does it matter the Vodka proof?, like 80%?

 

[jason2459]

I would avoid the water and depending on assumptions and how things are interpreted it could be very little.

I would go with
Nopox's ratio for 1L using no water is 590ml Vinegar to 410ml Vodka

Or what I liked even better is a ratio from another member that has been mixing vodka and vinegar well before NoPOX came out.

TMZ's ratio for 1L is 690ml Vinegar to 310ml Vodka


and if you REALLY want to be like nopox you could add a touch of methanol and possibly a trace of isopropanol. But I would suggest against methanol as it's lethal to most life on earth. At least it's metabolites are.

 

[jason2459]

Does it matter the Vodka proof?, like 80%?

Yes it does. 80 proof (40%) is what the recommendations are based off of and 5% acetic acid.

Edit: not saying you have to use 80 proof and 5% acetic acid but you will have to factor in the difference.

 

[jason2459]

Here's a spreadsheet by another member Biom as well.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Based on an NMR of NOPOX, a diy mix of 500 mls vinegar (5%), 375 mls vodka (80 proof), and 125 mls RO/DI matches the ratios.

 

[jason2459]

Based on an NMR of NOPOX, a diy mix of 500 mls vinegar (5%), 375 mls vodka (80 proof), and 125 mls RO/DI matches the ratios.

Maybe. Like I mentioned above there's room for interpretation. The spreadsheet by biom I attached above is from the thread that broke it down by sherminator.

http://web1.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985&page=3

and we know the one peak is methanol as it was right on the bottle at one point saying contains methanol and is in the sds sheet saying it does contain methanol.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Maybe. Like I mentioned above there's room for interpretation. The spreadsheet by biom I attached above is from the thread that broke it down by sherminator.

http://web1.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2408985&page=3

and we know the one peak is methanol as it was right on the bottle at one point saying contains methanol and is in the sds sheet saying it does contain methanol.

The recipe I've quoted above comes from the "Sherminator" post on that other site as well.....and thank his grad students for doing the testing! If I remember correctly, he didn't find any methanol, and if so, it would be there in trace amounts. I've been using this recipe for maybe about a year now, and love it....it works....and I use the NOPOX instructional dosing of:

Measured Level (ppm) ....................Daily Dose ml/100 L (25 gal)
NO3 above 10 ---------------------------------------3
NO3 above 2.5, but less than 10 ------------------2
NO3 above 1 but less than 2.5 ---------------------1

 

[jason2459]

The recipe I've quoted above comes from the "Sherminator" post on that other site as well.....and thank his grad students for doing the testing! If I remember correctly, he didn't find any methanol, and if so, it would be there in trace amounts. I've been using this recipe for maybe about a year now, and love it....it works....and I use the NOPOX instructional dosing of:

Measured Level (ppm) ....................Daily Dose ml/100 L (25 gal)
NO3 above 10 ---------------------------------------3
NO3 above 2.5, but less than 10 ------------------2
NO3 above 1 but less than 2.5 ---------------------1

Must read the entire thread. It gets updated several times. Any ratio will potentially work as it's all a source of carbon. I personally would avoid dilution with water. Its already dilute enough.

He most definitely concurs with what Red Sea claimed on their label and their sds sheet about containing methanol.

Okay, so NOPOX actually has 2.1% methanol.

For the methyl peaks of ethanol : methanol, the integrations are 2.97 : 0.23. So it's ~13 mol ethanol to 1 mol methanol, which is as Randy said. 40% ethanol is 0.68 mol ethanol, so there is 0.052 mol of methanol per 100 mL. That is 2.1 mL / 100 mL or 2%.

And to be perfectly complete, there is also 1.2% isopropanol in NOPOX.

I don't think either methanol or isopropanol are there for any biological reason. In lab, we have a bottle I just looked at of 90% ethanol that is denatured with 5% methanol and 5% isopropanol. I'm sure RedSea uses something similar for their ethanol source.

While it's probably fine to use a source of ethanol with 10% methanol (to save money), for everyone else looking to cheaply recreate NOPOX, there is no reason to add tiny amounts of methanol or isopropanol.

 

[jason2459]

Some other worthwhile quotes on accuracy of the "ratios"

But IMO in this case the ratio ethanol: acetic acid will be correct but solution will be 20% "weaker" than original product (will have 20% more water). To have same concentration in 1 liter product as in nopox we have to mix 600 ml vinegar 5% with 400 ml 45 % vodka (or whiskey ) If the vodka is 40% then we have to mix 600 ml vinegar with 460 ml of 40% (80 Proof) vodka but in this case solution will be 6% weaker than original.

I made this calculations using statement that acetic acid is 3% (in the original solution?) and ratio between ethanol: acetic acid is 6:1 (moles).


To make it simple:
1L nopox = 600 ml 5% vinegar + 400 ml 40% vodka
1L tmz recipe = 700 ml 5% vinegar + 300 ml 40% vodka

We also should have in mind that vodka is not pure ethanol and water, it has round 3 grams sugar and glycerol per liter and other ingredients like citric acid and sodium bicarbonate.

Yeah, there is some error in the acetic acid measurement. We found it was 2.5 +/- 0.5%. That is 20% error. If you use 2.5% (as I did in that approximation you commented on) you'll be 20% "underpowered" relative to assuming it's 3% acetic acid.

Without doing something more sophisticated, it's hard to know precisely how much AcOH is in there. But we do know the ratio and components precisely. I think it's a close enough approximation, but worth noting (as you did), it might be as much as 20% off in concentration.

No, it is not new. I made it before shermanator to clarify that the concentration of acetic acid in nopox is 2.5% +/- 0.5%, i.e. it could be anything between 2.0 and 3.0% .In previous calculation I used 3%, shermanator uses 2.5% . And also he is using 30% ethanol in his formula; my formula is with 40% vodka.

To make it more clear:

=> if concentration of AcOH in nopox is 2 % then formula to achieve 1 liter is: 400 ml 5% vinegar + 300ml 40% vodka + 300 ml RO/DI water

=> if is 2.5% then formula is – 500 ml 5%vinegar + 375ml 40%vodka + 125 ml RO/DI water (Randy equalized amounts of water and vodka, to make it more simple. Shermanator uses 30% ethanol (instead of 40% vodka) to equalize amounts ethanol and vinegar to 1:1, without adding water)

=> if is 2.85% (maximum concentration of acetic acid possible if using 40% vodka and 5% vinegar) then formula is – 570ml 5%vinegar + 430ml 40%vodka and no RO/DI water to be added


TMZ recipe (post #88) for 1 liter is: 690 ml 5% vinegar + 310ml 40% vodka


=> So my personal choice is something between TMZ recipe and maximum concentration of NOPOX: 600 ml 5% vinegar + 400 ml 40% vodka without adding water.

I’m using 40% vodka – in EU vodka should be more than 37.5% to be legally on the market, in US products sold as "vodka" must have a minimum alcohol content of 40%.

So there are no differences between the formulas, but each of us uses different concentration of ethanol and/or rounded in different scales.

Hope it helps.

That may or may not be (very) easy. My taking and assigning an NMR is trivial, but if there are non-organic components (especially some metals) it might interfere with the NMR. And (proton) NMR can only identify organic compounds (something with a proton).

If it's some combination of acetic acid, alcohol of some sort, and possible a sugar, that would be simple to determine the ratios. Absolute concentration is also fairly easy to do if 20% accuracy is close enough.

I don't have any KZ products and have never used them. What does Zeostart smell like? And is it colorless?

In terms of carbon content this calculation is correct (if the concentration of AcOH in NOPOX is 2.5%), but please have in mind that the acetic acid is consumed directly from bacteria, so it is possible that in biological point of view acetic acid to have stronger effect than alcohol. So to be on the safe side i would start with lower amount of vinegar than calculated, let say 35-40 ml in your case, and to increase slowly if needed.

The ratio is known exactly by NMR. But there is some uncertainty in the absolute amounts of ethanol and acetic acid. What we did (standard curve of acetic acid to determine % acetic acid) is pretty accurate (+/- 0.5%) but not perfect.

I agree with you that a hydrometer in a mixed organic solution is likely not that much more accurate.

I think the recipes based on the NMR are close enough. It's not perfect, but it doesn't need to be.

 

[redfishbluefish]

@jason2459 , thanks for the additional information. I believe what's important is that it puts us in the ballpark, and as far as I can tell, bacteria do not have a discerning palate. (And as far as I know, no scientific papers have been written optimizing a combination of acetate and ethanol for bacterial consumption) They can and do metabolize vinegar and vodka without problems, while utilizing excess nitrates and phosphates from out tanks.

All I know is that the recipe I use works for me....and most likely a wide window of percentages would most likely work as well. Realize that some dose vinegar only, and vodka only.....and have success in lowering nitrates and phosphates. So actually the only thing needed is a dosing amount for whatever combination of vodka and vinegar that you use. And again, the above recipe with dosing works for me.

So I believe we are in agreement.

 

[jason2459]

There's actually research showing a negative effect of the use of ethanol promoting Acetobacter but I have to look it up again and exactly what it was.

Also using a carbon source to increase these bacteria will hinder denitrifying bacteria so I wouldn't suggest a new tank start up with carbon dosing.

Otherwise, yes I basically agree.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I also agree that the specific ratio is very unimportant. IME, leaving out the vodka entirely is fine.

 

[GoVols]

IME, leaving out the vodka entirely is fine.

... ...

......... ;Writing

 

[Felix_Brown]

This is my first post on R2R , so hi everyone...

I can't get hold of Ethanol and I didn't want to use Vodka on my recipe. So was wondering if I could use Ethyl Acetate to replace the Vodka/Ethanol?

Anyone knows? Thank you in advance!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Welcome aboard, Felix!

Could you? Likely yes.

Should you? I wouldn't. It is not miscible with water and will tend to bind to hydrophobic things like GAC, may disrupt cell membranes, etc, before it is hydrolyzed apart into ethanol and acetate.

I'd use vinegar.

 

[flampton]

I agree vinegar will do just fine.

Oh and welcome to reef2reef!!

 

[Felix_Brown]

Welcome aboard, Felix!

Could you? Likely yes.

Should you? I wouldn't. It is not miscible with water and will tend to bind to hydrophobic things like GAC, may disrupt cell membranes, etc, before it is hydrolyzed apart into ethanol and acetate.

I'd use vinegar.

Many thanks Randy & flampton!

I have easy access to acetic acid, if I make a solution using only acetic acid and RODI water will that work? Any issues of not having the ethanol in it? Given this having only one source of carbon, what % of acetic acid would be adequate?

I've looking into some recipes but, they always had Ethanol/Vodka and Acetic Acid/Vinegar....

In any case, thanks again!