New fish dying within 24 hours unknown causes

[Raincoatman]

Help please. Background: Reef tank has been set up and running for about 9 months. First group of fish put in were 2 clowns and a royal gramma. After about 10 days started the flashing, hiding from light, and swimming into current. All fish expired within 4 days. I assumed velvet after reading some forums. The display tank went fallow for about 3 months. I set up a quarantine tank. Bare bottom, pvc pipes in a 16 gallon biocube. Cycled that with a bag of matrix and Turbo Start for bio filter. Added a fairy wrasse, clown and Green Chromis. Copper Power at about 2.0 ppm for 30 days and food mixed with API general cure as per Humblefish's recipe. Added a couple Black Mollies to the QT for good measure. Moved those fish to DT after the 30 days and were disease free as far as I could tell and in great health for about 3 months. Only thing added were corals and snails with out QT. One day all fish started breathing heavy. The wrasse expired within hours. I was able to catch the clown. A 30 minute bath in 150 ppm H2O2 and back into the QT he went. He recovered. The Chromis also expired.

Now I'm at my wits end on my third try at this. Same clownfish with a lawnmower blenny, another Green Chromis, and 3 small Springer damsels. QT for 30 days. All fish came from LFS with a 30 minute H2O2 bath prior to QT. 2 black mollies added to QT. This time fish were not medicated and just observed for 30 days. Fish were fed General Cure mixed food once a day for about 2 weeks initially. No apparent disease and all fish seemed healthy and eating well. Transferred the Mollies to DT after another 46 day fallow. Mollies stayed in DT for 2 weeks. No spots or other disease behavior. Next added the blenny to DT. He's doing fine. No signs of disease. Next was a springers damsel. He died within 24 hrs in the DT. Thought maybe it just didn't acclimate well. Tried another Springer. He too lasted only 24 hrs and died. Thought maybe one a the emerald crabs or snails were the culprits so I put the third damsel into an acclimation box. He survived over night in the DT. So I released him. Immediate rapid breathing and balance problems. Died within 30 minutes. During this time I added the original clownfish. He is doing fine. So is the algae blenny. Last fish in yesterday was the Chromis. He survived overnight but right now is doing the rapid breathing thing and doesn't look real good. All these new additions looked great and ate within their first few hours in the DT. Then suddenly died. I don't think I have a parasite in there. Seems something more toxic that effected the damsels and chromis but didn't effect the clown and blenny. They all did fine in the QT for quite a long time. I think I can rule out an introduced toxin because i would think it would effect the other fish. The only thing I could think of was ammonia. Red Sea test kit showed in between 0 and 0.2 on their color chart to my eye. Yellow with an ever so slight green tint. 0 Nitrite and 0 Nitrate. So to be safe I added some Prime as per instructions and some Microbacter 7. NOTE: One immediate effect that I noticed after adding the Prime. 4 or 5 colonies of Zoas that have been partially closed for months have now completely opened up. Strange.

I can't figure this one out. Would an ICP test be wise here? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Parameters:
Tank 34 gal Red Sea 130D AIO Tunze 9001 Skimmer and 40 lbs Caribsea shapes rock, Radion XR15 gen3 pro
SG 1.026 with calibrated refractometer
Ammonia 0.02 Red Sea
NO2 0.00 Red Sea
NO3 0.00 Red Sea
KH 7.7 Red Sea
Ca 430 Red Sea
Mg 1500 Red Sea
Phosphate 0.06 Hanna ULR
PH 8.4 Red Sea

 

[MnFish1]

First - you did a great job at giving all the information.

Hopefully @Jay Hemdal will see this and respond.

A couple things that come to mind. Since the damsel (in an acclimation box - which I assume is the same 'water condition' - as your tank - did fine there - could there be a mantis shrimp/etc etc - that is attacking fish (doubtful).

If could be possible that the LFS has fish that are 'sub-quality' - i.e. - just arrived - look fine - but then die.

Also - Chromis and Damsels - do not always do well - and chromis especially seem to do poorly unless in a large group - and are disease free.

So - my 'guess' - awaiting for more expert opinion in order 1. Disease (undiagnosed), 2. Fighting with tank inhabitants. 3. Fish with low reserve to start with - being paired with fish that are going to fight. 4. Some other toxin. The acclimation box seems to rule that out.

Sorry to hear this - as its a mess to start a tank and have problems. Did your LFS have any advice? Hope this helps

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Lots to break down here……

First, ICP won’t give you any useful information, any toxins would be broken down to their elements and reported to you that way.

Second, it may well be that these losses are not all related.

The are few to no toxins that will kill fish, but leave invertebrates unscathed. One thing that can is low dissolved oxygen. You need to ensure that isn’t happening.

Another common cause of fish loss in the first day of being moved is acclimation stress due to a salinity rise. If you have a fish in day 1.020 and you want to move them to 1.025, that really needs to be done more gradually than just a simple acclimation.

Im not a fan of using black mollies as test fish. They can carry other diseases such as mycobacteria, and even brackish water parasites. I my mind, that overrides their benefit for ferreting out ich.

Jay

 

[Raincoatman]

Thanks Jay, I didn't think of the rise in salinity from QT to DT would cause an issue. It was a rise from 1.020 to 1.026 and the acclimation was the same for all the DT fish. About an hour and a half. Maybe that is the issue as the LFS Specific Gravity and my QT are virtually the same and why they all did so well in QT. As far as dissolved oxygen is concerned I think it should be OK. There's a lot of surface agitation and the skimmer produces a lot of bubbles but if there is a way that I could test it please let me know. All good advice. Thanks so much. As of now the second chromis is still alive and still breathing a little heavy. Wasn't interested in eating when other fish were fed but we'll see how he fairs. Thanks again.

 

[Raincoatman]

First - you did a great job at giving all the information.

Hopefully @Jay Hemdal will see this and respond.

A couple things that come to mind. Since the damsel (in an acclimation box - which I assume is the same 'water condition' - as your tank - did fine there - could there be a mantis shrimp/etc etc - that is attacking fish (doubtful).

If could be possible that the LFS has fish that are 'sub-quality' - i.e. - just arrived - look fine - but then die.

Also - Chromis and Damsels - do not always do well - and chromis especially seem to do poorly unless in a large group - and are disease free.

So - my 'guess' - awaiting for more expert opinion in order 1. Disease (undiagnosed), 2. Fighting with tank inhabitants. 3. Fish with low reserve to start with - being paired with fish that are going to fight. 4. Some other toxin. The acclimation box seems to rule that out.

Sorry to hear this - as its a mess to start a tank and have problems. Did your LFS have any advice? Hope this helps

Thank you so much for the advice. I was thinking mantis shrimp or some other hitch hiker too. That's why I put the third damsel in an acclimation box in the DT. Never got the opportunity to see if he was attacked or not, but I think I'll take Jay's advice and acclimate any new fish way longer. It so frustrating because I have to assume that every LFS fish is diseased and QT before trying this again.

 

[LaloJ]

In my opinion that's quite a lot of salinity change in one sitting, I think Jay has nailed it, you can gradually reduce the salinity of your dt down to 1.023 and increase the salinity in your QT up to 1.0.21 or maybe 0.22, this also gradually, that gives a quite acceptable margin of change during acclimatization. Now, it could also be that there is a little stray current in the water, I'm not sure it kills that fast but it definitely stresses the fish, it's also an option I think.

 

[Raincoatman]

In my opinion that's quite a lot of salinity change in one sitting, I think Jay has nailed it, you can gradually reduce the salinity of your dt down to 1.023 and increase the salinity in your QT up to 1.0.21 or maybe 0.22, this also gradually, that gives a quite acceptable margin of change during acclimatization. Now, it could also be that there is a little stray current in the water, I'm not sure it kills that fast but it definitely stresses the fish, it's also an option I think.

Thanks. I think that's my corrective course of action with the salinity. I guess it's fish specific because the other DT fish didn't react that way. I'll be sure to get both tanks within range on the next try. I'll research the stray voltage possibility. I've heard of it before but never checked. I'll do a forum search on how to check for it and see if that's an issue. Thanks again. All good info.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks. I think that's my corrective course of action with the salinity. I guess it's fish specific because the other DT fish didn't react that way. I'll be sure to get both tanks within range on the next try. I'll research the stray voltage possibility. I've heard of it before but never checked. I'll do a forum search on how to check for it and see if that's an issue. Thanks again. All good info.

I'm certain that much of a salinity change was a contributing factor. Stores often keep their SG low to save on salt and to "protect" fish against parasites (but it isn't actually low enough to do that). Now days, reefers keep a much higher
SG - 1.026. You need to acclimate that much of a difference over days, not hours. That means using an intermediary tank - and a quarantine tank is best anyways.

Stray voltage - there are two types: induced voltage (usually less than 60v, often less than 10v). This has never been shown to be a problem, all aquariums have this unless they are grounded. It typically comes from the action of magnetic pumps. True voltage shorts are dangerous to you, and can cause issues with the fish, and all stem from some failure of the equipment on the tank. GFCIs are a must.

Jay

 

[Raincoatman]

I'm certain that much of a salinity change was a contributing factor. Stores often keep their SG low to save on salt and to "protect" fish against parasites (but it isn't actually low enough to do that). Now days, reefers keep a much higher
SG - 1.026. You need to acclimate that much of a difference over days, not hours. That means using an intermediary tank - and a quarantine tank is best anyways.

Stray voltage - there are two types: induced voltage (usually less than 60v, often less than 10v). This has never been shown to be a problem, all aquariums have this unless they are grounded. It typically comes from the action of magnetic pumps. True voltage shorts are dangerous to you, and can cause issues with the fish, and all stem from some failure of the equipment on the tank. GFCIs are a must.

Jay

Thanks again. You guys are the best. Don't think I would of ever figured this out on my own. GFCI outlets on the tank circuits are my next steps. I'm going to pay way more attention to specific gravity next try at this. So far no more moratlities.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

what I see you doing that I would never do myself, you are adding 3-4 fish at a time into a 16 gallon, going from zero to 3 is too much too fast IMO. I always suggest to add 1 fish then wait a few weeks before adding one more, I've never lost a new fish, just my 2 cents.

 

[jfoahs04]

what I see you doing that I would never do myself, you are adding 3-4 fish at a time into a 16 gallon, going from zero to 3 is too much too fast IMO. I always suggest to add 1 fish then wait a few weeks before adding one more, I've never lost a new fish, just my 2 cents.

Absolutely agree. However, I think the salinity is the bigger issue in this instance. Even if the OP just added a single hardy fish, it likely wouldn't survive the shock from the change in salinity.

 

[MnFish1]

what I see you doing that I would never do myself, you are adding 3-4 fish at a time into a 16 gallon, going from zero to 3 is too much too fast IMO. I always suggest to add 1 fish then wait a few weeks before adding one more, I've never lost a new fish, just my 2 cents.

Actually - IMHO - (I agree in general) - BUT - with one exception - if you can lets say buy 3 clowns from an LFS - in the same tank - I think you can add more than one. Or how ever many. They are all exposed - and as immune to everything as the rest of the tank.

 

[costaricareef]

Actually - IMHO - (I agree in general) - BUT - with one exception - if you can lets say buy 3 clowns from an LFS - in the same tank - I think you can add more than one. Or how ever many. They are all exposed - and as immune to everything as the rest of the tank.

What i do is raise the salinity of the QT during the last two weeks of quarantine with every partial water change and with not replacing evaporation with RO. The day for transfer to the DT it's 1.026 in the QT. During the rest of the quarantine period it hovers around 1.021-1.022. As said above, this looks like an important part of the issue.

 

[MnFish1]

What i do is raise the salinity of the QT during the last two weeks of quarantine with every partial water change and with not replacing evaporation with RO. The day for transfer to the DT it's 1.026 in the QT. During the rest of the quarantine period it hovers around 1.021-1.022. As said above, this looks like an important part of the issue.

Agree - I don't buy from shops that keep their salinity low.

 

[Raincoatman]

what I see you doing that I would never do myself, you are adding 3-4 fish at a time into a 16 gallon, going from zero to 3 is too much too fast IMO. I always suggest to add 1 fish then wait a few weeks before adding one more, I've never lost a new fish, just my 2 cents.

I agree. In my anxiousness to stock my DT after months of fallow led me to QT these fish all together. They were not necessarily all at the same, but not over several weeks like you suggest. You're right. That's the way to go.

 

[Raincoatman]

What i do is raise the salinity of the QT during the last two weeks of quarantine with every partial water change and with not replacing evaporation with RO. The day for transfer to the DT it's 1.026 in the QT. During the rest of the quarantine period it hovers around 1.021-1.022. As said above, this looks like an important part of the issue.

I'm going to start doing this as you described. Makes sense to me.