Never ending bacterial bloom that returns once UV is removed

[Druinz]

So I've had a 20 high tank set up since January. I added all dry rock, used some Dr.Tim's ammonia to start the cycle and waited. It's been cycled for a while now. It slowly got cloudy which I expected, so I waited.
And waited.
And waited, as everyone seems to say.
It has not gone away. People say "just be patient" when they mean at max a month or two, but it has not stopped.
I added a UV sterilizer that seems to slowly get rid of it over a week, but as soon as I remove it, the cloudiness comes back.
Params:
Nitrate: ~10 ppm
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate: undetectable
Kh: ~10.5
Ph ~7.9
Mg - 1250
Ca - 470

As of right now livestock is a clown goby and a neon blue goby

I also have a minimal amount of "live sand" I added- about 10lbs to just slightly cover the bottom.

This is infuriating because I had the same exact issue on a previous setup and that one lasted even longer until I tore it down for other reasons..

On my tank I've a small internal skimmer rated for 30 gallons, and an aquaclear that I have with just floss to polish the water which seems to help slightly.

 

[K7BMG]

Do you use activated carbon?
Started my tank in February and after the cycle it got cloudy as well.
Installed a carbon reactor and was clear in two days.
I do not have a UV.

 

[brandon429]

If you take the tank apart and clean it, make the sand cloudless ( it likely was not pre rinsed ) and then change all the water this will stop. You can try any number of partial measures and see what happens, or just fix it by lunch today.

we have the 100% ability to stop any known nano invasion without knowing params, or ID of the offender, simply by rip cleaning a nano reef. 100% cure rate based on being willing to simply do a true cleaning vs a partial one. That, and stop adding any 2 part items until we get things under control. Only large tanks have to do the wait and hope option, the weeks and months option, a nano tank can be fixed same day due to size/volume/ability to access.

The only thing that ranges is willingness of the reefer. Most will not choose to fix it that fast, they fear upset of the system even though we have 20+ pages already doing the work on half a mil worth of reefs. They grip onto the invasion, and hold firm, firm. They feel that only dosing things to the water is the legit option and that all reefs must have an extended invasion in order to be normal. Hesitation has usually taken over fully, but we catch a few willing to break free!

we should run live time rip cleaning example #2454 here if you like. Your tank being invaded or uninvaded isn't a matter of chemistry or biology, its only will since its 20 gallons. we already have the outcomes documented.
B

 

[BeejReef]

I just saw a video on this... which is to say I don't have any firsthand knowledge or experience on this topic, but I did see a video on it . I also stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Seriously though, with that little sand, you're essentially running a bare-bottom tank. If you search youtube for bare-bottom and bulk reef supply, they have a number of videos where they talk about the first YEAR being hell.

My guess, add more sand or... wait for it.. be patient ;0

 

[FlyPenFly]

Keep the UV on or ride out the bloom, it might take a week or it might take two months. It's the eco-system in your tank trying to fix itself. If you keep the UV on, your system will take much longer to have it's eco-battle but it will eventually.

 

[Druinz]

If you take the tank apart and clean it, make the sand cloudless ( it likely was not pre rinsed ) and then change all the water this will stop. You can try any number of partial measures and see what happens, or just fix it by lunch today.

we have the 100% ability to stop any known nano invasion without knowing params, or ID of the offender, simply by rip cleaning a nano reef. 100% cure rate based on being willing to simply do a true cleaning vs a partial one. That, and stop adding any 2 part items until we get things under control. Only large tanks have to do the wait and hope option, the weeks and months option, a nano tank can be fixed same day due to size/volume/ability to access.

The only thing that ranges is willingness of the reefer. Most will not choose to fix it that fast, they fear upset of the system even though we have 20+ pages already doing the work on half a mil worth of reefs. They grip onto the invasion, and hold firm, firm. They feel that only dosing things to the water is the legit option and that all reefs must have an extended invasion in order to be normal. Hesitation has usually taken over fully, but we catch a few willing to break free!

we should run live time rip cleaning example #2454 here if you like. Your tank being invaded or uninvaded isn't a matter of chemistry or biology, its only will since its 20 gallons. we already have the outcomes documented.
B

I don't really get the point of your post, rather than really explaining what to do you just explain that I should do it. I don't mean to attack, I'm just genuinely lost by your answer. The tank had been crystal clear even with the sand added for some time. Adding UV for a long period also made the tank crystal clear, the sand did not cloud the tank at all from when I added it or some time after.. Taking the tank apart would only set me back a cycle, no? Isn't that quite literally the opposite of what I'd want? I'm not entirely sure, but your post is extremely vague so I'm not sure what you're trying to say..

Do you use activated carbon?
Started my tank in February and after the cycle it got cloudy as well.
Installed a carbon reactor and was clear in two days.
I do not have a UV.

I'm not currently running carbon and my next idea was to add that, but I'm going to wait for several opinions before I just start adding or changing stuff. I do find it interesting that carbon alone cleared it up for you without UV!

I just saw a video on this... which is to say I don't have any firsthand knowledge or experience on this topic, but I did see a video on it . I also stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Seriously though, with that little sand, you're essentially running a bare-bottom tank. If you search youtube for bare-bottom and bulk reef supply, they have a number of videos where they talk about the first YEAR being hell.

My guess, add more sand or... wait for it.. be patient ;0

I've stayed away from deep sand because I've heard of it being extremely dangerous in the long run, but I should do my due diligence and read up on DSB's or just having even a little more sand than I have now. It might just be what I need!

 

[BeejReef]

I don't really get the point of your post, rather than really explaining what to do you just explain that I should do it. I don't mean to attack, I'm just genuinely lost by your answer. The tank had been crystal clear even with the sand added for some time. Adding UV for a long period also made the tank crystal clear, the sand did not cloud the tank at all from when I added it or some time after.. Taking the tank apart would only set me back a cycle, no? Isn't that quite literally the opposite of what I'd want? I'm not entirely sure, but your post is extremely vague so I'm not sure what you're trying to say..



I'm not currently running carbon and my next idea was to add that, but I'm going to wait for several opinions before I just start adding or changing stuff. I do find it interesting that carbon alone cleared it up for you without UV!



I've stayed away from deep sand because I've heard of it being extremely dangerous in the long run, but I should do my due diligence and read up on DSB's or just having even a little more sand than I have now. It might just be what I need!

Again, no expert, but there's a difference between a "deep sand bed" and having an inch or two of sand in your tank. I think you're talking about 5-6" to get into DSB territory and all of the magical anarobic stuff that's supposed to happen way down deep. I just tried to find the video for you, but it's one of the "live" 84 minute ones. They talk about it often though, how with no sand, there is dramatically less surface area for bacteria and microfauna and how a bare-bottom tank can be much more stable long term, but can be an absolute nightmare for the first year with ongoing bacterial blooms and cloudy water. I realize you're not a bare-bottom, but it sounds like you're close to it and sounded similar enough to what you were describing that it might be worth looking into.

 

[Taxus812]

I just got through it. Your nitrates are high for a new tank.you don’t have corals to ”Eat” it. If you run carbon it will absorb the nitrates and kill the algae. You want your yearling tank to be @ about 2ppm nitrates until you get some corals. You also want .03 to .07 phosphate to prevent Dino’s from forming. Simple way to get that is feed frozen foods. Also you should be testing phosphate with a low range test.

This is what I learned and it worked. I still had a small amount on my glass each day but the water is crystal clear now.

Side note only run the carbon bag for a week then change it. It will get used up quick then you put in a fresh one to keep it clear. (It can now run for a month or so until you see the water getting greenish again)

Hope this helps you like it did me.

 

[Druinz]

I just got through it. Your nitrates are high for a new tank.you don’t have corals to ”Eat” it. If you run carbon it will absorb the nitrates and kill the algae. You want your yearling tank to be @ about 2ppm nitrates until you get some corals. You also want .03 to .07 phosphate to prevent Dino’s from forming. Simple way to get that is feed frozen foods. Also you should be testing phosphate with a low range test.

This is what I learned and it worked. I still had a small amount on my glass each day but the water is crystal clear now.

Side note only run the carbon bag for a week then change it. It will get used up quick then you put in a fresh one to keep it clear. (It can now run for a month or so until you see the water getting greenish again)

Hope this helps you like it did me.

I do use a low range test kit. Also, thanks for the tip about frozen food, I didn't know about that one. I figured to get a different balance of nitrate/phosphate from food, you needed to dose something like Potassium Nitrate or Monopotassium Phosphate. Thanks!

I'll look into getting carbon and trying to feed less pellet & flake to keep nitrates lower while starting to feed frozen to bring phosphate up to at least detectable.

 

[Taxus812]

Oh another big tip. Rinse the carbon being mindful not to the kneed the bag. It crushes the carbon and makes more dust. Just put it under the faucet until the water runs clear.

 

[Druinz]

I just realized,

It can now run for a month or so until you see the water getting greenish again)

I'm not having an algae outbreak (that I know of). It's just cloudy water (milky-ish) from heterotrophic bacteria I assume, but not entirely sure
Also does carbon directly absorb nitrate? I thought it was for other organics

 

[Dan_P]

So I've had a 20 high tank set up since January. I added all dry rock, used some Dr.Tim's ammonia to start the cycle and waited. It's been cycled for a while now. It slowly got cloudy which I expected, so I waited.
And waited.
And waited, as everyone seems to say.
It has not gone away. People say "just be patient" when they mean at max a month or two, but it has not stopped.
I added a UV sterilizer that seems to slowly get rid of it over a week, but as soon as I remove it, the cloudiness comes back.
Params:
Nitrate: ~10 ppm
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate: undetectable
Kh: ~10.5
Ph ~7.9
Mg - 1250
Ca - 470

As of right now livestock is a clown goby and a neon blue goby

I also have a minimal amount of "live sand" I added- about 10lbs to just slightly cover the bottom.

This is infuriating because I had the same exact issue on a previous setup and that one lasted even longer until I tore it down for other reasons..

On my tank I've a small internal skimmer rated for 30 gallons, and an aquaclear that I have with just floss to polish the water which seems to help slightly.

Apparently you are doing something consistent to produce persistent water cloudiness.

Cloudiness should not require a month or two to clear up. Difficult to imagine what conditions would produce such a long elevated bacteria count. I would imagine bacteria would need to be fed organic carbon to maintain such cloudiness.

Even fine particulate matter from unwashed sand should have shown definite signs of clearing up by now.

Do large water changes lower the cloudiness?

Most importantly, would you send a photo clearly showing how cloudy the water is?

One thing to do for sure is to clarify @brandon429 advice.

 

[Shinte122305]

So I've had a 20 high tank set up since January. I added all dry rock, used some Dr.Tim's ammonia to start the cycle and waited. It's been cycled for a while now. It slowly got cloudy which I expected, so I waited.
And waited.
And waited, as everyone seems to say.
It has not gone away. People say "just be patient" when they mean at max a month or two, but it has not stopped.
I added a UV sterilizer that seems to slowly get rid of it over a week, but as soon as I remove it, the cloudiness comes back.
Params:
Nitrate: ~10 ppm
Ammonia: 0
Phosphate: undetectable
Kh: ~10.5
Ph ~7.9
Mg - 1250
Ca - 470

As of right now livestock is a clown goby and a neon blue goby

I also have a minimal amount of "live sand" I added- about 10lbs to just slightly cover the bottom.

This is infuriating because I had the same exact issue on a previous setup and that one lasted even longer until I tore it down for other reasons..

On my tank I've a small internal skimmer rated for 30 gallons, and an aquaclear that I have with just floss to polish the water which seems to help slightly.

I had a very similar experience with my first tank. endless cloudiness that not even a UV solved for me month after month. i reached out to Dr tim actually lol i sent him an email and one of his people responded to check for deodorizers like the ones you plug into the walls or a battery one that gives scent to a room these things have chemicals in them that feed the tanks bacteria. it turned out that it was in my situation my Aunt. every morning and night when she wakes up or goes to bed she sprays scents in her room which is across mine where my tank is. i told her to close my door and her door when she sprays it and guess what my cloudiness went away lmaooo after months of scratching my head it was the dang spray. so check for any of that in your house.

Also, people run UV on tanks all year ive ran mine for the past 7 years in my tank. i have it on a timer to run the 12 hours of the night and off during the day.

 

[brandon429]

Shinte great call it’s something to consider.



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

A work thread of making clear tanks, especially out of any nano.

No recycle

Zero cloudy tanks, zero for 23 pages to show a pattern. Clean your tank and sand and do a 100% water change, statistically what are the chances your tank will be an outlier compared to after pics above

Why I think your tank qualifies for the procedure:


Accessible full water column was all we ever needed to make clean tanks. That, or someone moving a giant reef where they -had- to access it even if they didn’t want to.


Zero ID we don’t need to see what the invader is

Zero param readings (asked for in the prep) though N and P were provided by some after work to show trending. By doing the tank surgery w will catch the cause in the sweep

If your tank is being made cloudy by brand new rocks casting off some kind of X or feeding suspended X then you can model that separately and know it before you begin. I guess even if we haven’t seen an example yet, nor have I ever seen any nano not comply with a rip clean, it’s possible you might do the work and it still comes back (though no harm to tank, 4x in there I rip clean my 13 yr old pico to participate, not because it needs it, I’ve been on cruise control since 2008)

Take out one of your rocks as a test and set it in a clean vase or see through lemonade pitcher or big jar/whatev

Clean 100% new saltwater and set the rock in for a few days if you want, see if it clouds up. If not, and if you weren’t dosing precipitation chems (two part, kalk etc magnesium etc) and no Carbon dosing then per statistics your tank will come out post op all sparkles and nice after pic

The uv use causing clarity supports the suspected cause about suspended bac being a culprit but I’ve never, ever, ever seen a nano have a sustained bloom (bac self regulate well in our systems) if the rocks have coralline coverage and the sand is clean and we run the tank doserless / weekly water changing only that’s the universal mode to a clean nano during testing or after the job is done so we can eliminate causatives for a couple weeks. The only nano that cannot survive long term testing on weekly partial water changes only vs stacks of dosers might be one packed to the hilt with Jason fox full sps colonies. Any other nano you can run bare bones a few weeks to find the causes

Since nobody has a $1500 Leica oil immersion setup on the kitchen counter we have no way to ID anyway, so I’m voting rip clean due to at most 25 or so total gallons of water to make.


*guarantees are no recycle of your aquarium if you study the method and apply it thorough, with deliberation. Worst case outcome is you have the first rebounding nano and are still hooked on UV to stop it. Even if that occurs your tank is made more stable not less stable by a rip clean, being cloudless helps prevent the next phasing of invasions namely cyano

Rip cleaning is not harmful it’s backflushing of a filter system (tank surfaces) which is basic filter maintenance, that’s why zero tanks were lost above. Removing clouding and associated floc and mixed aerobic bac (oxygen consuming competitors) is not harmful, so it’s a fine go-to measure for any small accessible system

 

[brandon429]

update?

 

[Druinz]

Update: Tank still cloudy. It's not SUPER cloudy but it's not the crystal clear i'd like. From the front it's not super noticeable but from the side I can't clearly see the other end.

Do large water changes lower the cloudiness?

Most importantly, would you send a photo clearly showing how cloudy the water is?

Sorry I didn't think to attach a photo sooner.
Having the UV on for a while cleared it, and doing a waterchange after that seemed to exacerbate the problem. I'm using clean RO/DI water with Red Sea blue bucket salt..

 

[Druinz]

Update: Tank is clearing up very nicely.
I've started to vigorously vacuum my sand during water changes. I've also kept running carbon. After reading around and discussing, it turns out "live sand" like the one I got usually has some sort of compounds that not only cloud the water but also affect surface tension and cause bubbling. IE my skimmer keeps putting microbubbles into the tank, and the bubbles tend to stay for a while on the surface. Cleaning the sand has reduced this..

Lesson learned: any time I get new sand for a tank, even if it's "live" sand, I will vigorously wash it even if instructed not to. The effects of not washing it have definitely cause more trouble than simply waiting for the tank to cycle normally, which I did anyway.

 

[Druinz]

Aaaand it's back. Worse than before. I don't understand, nothing's changed.. I haven't added any livestock or fed differently and it's just randomly back.. I've since changed my HOB filter out for a tiny cannister filter to use as a reactor for carbon, and I also added some filter floss that I'll frequently change out.

But it's still gotten extremely cloudy and I'm just beyond frustration cause I feel I do everything right but everything goes wrong.. How do people simply throw stuff into a tank with minimal thought and have such great results while I fumble while having perfect water parameters??

Still reading 0 nitrate, phosphate, and ammonia. All other params exactly as they should be. Also had water tested at LFS to confirm.
I'm at a loss, and it's driving me insane. I've had this tank up for close to a year and I'm scared to add anything more because it doesn't seem to be following the normal stages of a tank.. So all my hard work and money is just a tank with one fish and two corals that refuse to open (zoanthids)..
I'll probably have to make a different post for that, but the zoanthids haven't opened up in ages. I've modified flow, lights, feeding, placement, everything over time and they just refuse to open. Yesterday I did a dip with CoralRX and they still haven't opened thus far today.
I just feel extremely screwed over.. I started with dry rock and "live" sand but I cycled the tank over a long time using Dr.Tim's ammonia to make sure it was seeded and still I get these issues..
I've spent hours each day reading up on what it could be and literally nothing has come up that really helps..
;Dead;Dead;Dead

 

[Shinte122305]

Aaaand it's back. Worse than before. I don't understand, nothing's changed.. I haven't added any livestock or fed differently and it's just randomly back.. I've since changed my HOB filter out for a tiny cannister filter to use as a reactor for carbon, and I also added some filter floss that I'll frequently change out.

But it's still gotten extremely cloudy and I'm just beyond frustration cause I feel I do everything right but everything goes wrong.. How do people simply throw stuff into a tank with minimal thought and have such great results while I fumble while having perfect water parameters??

Still reading 0 nitrate, phosphate, and ammonia. All other params exactly as they should be. Also had water tested at LFS to confirm.
I'm at a loss, and it's driving me insane. I've had this tank up for close to a year and I'm scared to add anything more because it doesn't seem to be following the normal stages of a tank.. So all my hard work and money is just a tank with one fish and two corals that refuse to open (zoanthids)..
I'll probably have to make a different post for that, but the zoanthids haven't opened up in ages. I've modified flow, lights, feeding, placement, everything over time and they just refuse to open. Yesterday I did a dip with CoralRX and they still haven't opened thus far today.
I just feel extremely screwed over.. I started with dry rock and "live" sand but I cycled the tank over a long time using Dr.Tim's ammonia to make sure it was seeded and still I get these issues..
I've spent hours each day reading up on what it could be and literally nothing has come up that really helps..
;Dead;Dead;Dead

The 0 nitrate phosphate is the issue. You need to get fish in there and feed get plant life thriving algae etc. My friend went through this less than a year ago he had 2 clownfish in a giant empty 65 gallon tank and kept getting bacteria blooms and slime. I made him buy a tang and a few other fish. within 3 weeks it cleared up and he started going through algae blooms until it finally settled.

Also dont turn off UV sterilizer. If you want put it on a timer. i have mine turn on during the entire night everyday and off during peak hours.

 

[Druinz]

I stopped running UV cause the one I have is an internal one (SunSun JUP I believe?). It's huge and gives off a ton of flow, so I only wanted to run it temporarily to get rid of the bloom which seems to work for 99% of people, except mines keeps coming back. I'd rather fix the solution rather than treat a symptom cause I feel this might cause more issues down the road if I don't correct whatever it is I'm doing wrong.. I just gotta figure it out

As for adding other fish, I've thought of this as well. Can some others give some input on this? I don't want to add anything else since I feel it might be a risk, but if it is actually the fix then I'll go ahead with it.