Neobenedenia flukes confirmed - after 2 weeks of copper - Please help

[sck90]

Hello,

I need your help, please.

I have a Carpenter's flasher wrasse and a Pintail fairy wrasse in a 10 gal Qt tank since August 28 th. They looked healthy when they arrived. I started copper treatment with copper power at 2.25 ppm August 29 th. Both fish had been eating, but the pintail was very skittish.

First few days, all good. Both fish eating well. Pintail still skittish, but at least I could see him eating.

Things started to bother me after about 4 days. I saw the carpenter beginning to scratch on pvc tubings. Pintail started to dart like crazy, to the point he smacked himself on walls and on the plexiglass top several times. I took the decision to dose Fritz Paracleanse (september 3rd), because I suspected flukes and being in Canada, I have no access to general cure or Prazipro. I also read that it is safe to use with copper, provided there is plenty of aeration (which there is). After 48 hours, fish seemed a little better, but still not acting perfectly normal. They were eating ok, but as much as I would have hoped.

Second Paracleanse treatment after 7 days (september 10th). Carpenter's looked ok, eating well yesterday and today. Pintail did not eat since September 10th in the morning.

Today, on the afternoon, Pintail was in a corner, not moving at all. Carpenter ate, but I saw him dart and scratch again. I thus decided to do a freshwater bath to the Carpenter (but not to the pintail, because he was not feeling good enough). After 4 min, a ton of flukes started to come off the wrasse. From the eyes, skin, etc. I knew there was something wrong. Now it's confirmed : I am dealing with Neobenedenia flukes and paracleanse treatments did not work.

Note : I used paracleanse 4 times in the same quarantine tank (and same sponge filter) in the last weeks for other fish. I suspect praziquantel is no longer effective because of rapid bacterial degradation.

I think my only choice is hyposalinity. I was thinking doing a 50% waterchange this evening to bring salinity to 1.012 (it is 1.024 right now). This would also bring copper to 1.10 ppm approximately. I have cuprisorb on hand to remove the remaining copper.

Is this the best thing I could do ? I know I might not be able to save both wrasses, but I will do my best. Carpenter is not feeling good after the FW bath (probably because of the many flukes having left it's body).

How long should I do the hypo ? The Qt tank is only 10 gal, so the sooner they are out, the better, but I understand that treating adequately is the priority. I thought maybe I could do another copper treatment after the hypo. As of today, they have been in copper for 2 weeks.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello,

I need your help, please.

I have a Carpenter's flasher wrasse and a Pintail fairy wrasse in a 10 gal Qt tank since August 28 th. They looked healthy when they arrived. I started copper treatment with copper power at 2.25 ppm August 29 th. Both fish had been eating, but the pintail was very skittish.

First few days, all good. Both fish eating well. Pintail still skittish, but at least I could see him eating.

Things started to bother me after about 4 days. I saw the carpenter beginning to scratch on pvc tubings. Pintail started to dart like crazy, to the point he smacked himself on walls and on the plexiglass top several times. I took the decision to dose Fritz Paracleanse (september 3rd), because I suspected flukes and being in Canada, I have no access to general cure or Prazipro. I also read that it is safe to use with copper, provided there is plenty of aeration (which there is). After 48 hours, fish seemed a little better, but still not acting perfectly normal. They were eating ok, but as much as I would have hoped.

Second Paracleanse treatment after 7 days (september 10th). Carpenter's looked ok, eating well yesterday and today. Pintail did not eat since September 10th in the morning.

Today, on the afternoon, Pintail was in a corner, not moving at all. Carpenter ate, but I saw him dart and scratch again. I thus decided to do a freshwater bath to the Carpenter (but not to the pintail, because he was not feeling good enough). After 4 min, a ton of flukes started to come off the wrasse. From the eyes, skin, etc. I knew there was something wrong. Now it's confirmed : I am dealing with Neobenedenia flukes and paracleanse treatments did not work.

Note : I used paracleanse 4 times in the same quarantine tank (and same sponge filter) in the last weeks for other fish. I suspect praziquantel is no longer effective because of rapid bacterial degradation.

I think my only choice is hyposalinity. I was thinking doing a 50% waterchange this evening to bring salinity to 1.012 (it is 1.024 right now). This would also bring copper to 1.10 ppm approximately. I have cuprisorb on hand to remove the remaining copper.

Is this the best thing I could do ? I know I might not be able to save both wrasses, but I will do my best. Carpenter is not feeling good after the FW bath (probably because of the many flukes having left it's body).

How long should I do the hypo ? The Qt tank is only 10 gal, so the sooner they are out, the better, but I understand that treating adequately is the priority. I thought maybe I could do another copper treatment after the hypo. As of today, they have been in copper for 2 weeks.

Thank you in advance.

Hello,

I need your help, please.

I have a Carpenter's flasher wrasse and a Pintail fairy wrasse in a 10 gal Qt tank since August 28 th. They looked healthy when they arrived. I started copper treatment with copper power at 2.25 ppm August 29 th. Both fish had been eating, but the pintail was very skittish.

First few days, all good. Both fish eating well. Pintail still skittish, but at least I could see him eating.

Things started to bother me after about 4 days. I saw the carpenter beginning to scratch on pvc tubings. Pintail started to dart like crazy, to the point he smacked himself on walls and on the plexiglass top several times. I took the decision to dose Fritz Paracleanse (september 3rd), because I suspected flukes and being in Canada, I have no access to general cure or Prazipro. I also read that it is safe to use with copper, provided there is plenty of aeration (which there is). After 48 hours, fish seemed a little better, but still not acting perfectly normal. They were eating ok, but as much as I would have hoped.

Second Paracleanse treatment after 7 days (september 10th). Carpenter's looked ok, eating well yesterday and today. Pintail did not eat since September 10th in the morning.

Today, on the afternoon, Pintail was in a corner, not moving at all. Carpenter ate, but I saw him dart and scratch again. I thus decided to do a freshwater bath to the Carpenter (but not to the pintail, because he was not feeling good enough). After 4 min, a ton of flukes started to come off the wrasse. From the eyes, skin, etc. I knew there was something wrong. Now it's confirmed : I am dealing with Neobenedenia flukes and paracleanse treatments did not work.

Note : I used paracleanse 4 times in the same quarantine tank (and same sponge filter) in the last weeks for other fish. I suspect praziquantel is no longer effective because of rapid bacterial degradation.

I think my only choice is hyposalinity. I was thinking doing a 50% waterchange this evening to bring salinity to 1.012 (it is 1.024 right now). This would also bring copper to 1.10 ppm approximately. I have cuprisorb on hand to remove the remaining copper.

Is this the best thing I could do ? I know I might not be able to save both wrasses, but I will do my best. Carpenter is not feeling good after the FW bath (probably because of the many flukes having left it's body).

How long should I do the hypo ? The Qt tank is only 10 gal, so the sooner they are out, the better, but I understand that treating adequately is the priority. I thought maybe I could do another copper treatment after the hypo. As of today, they have been in copper for 2 weeks.

Thank you in advance.

I think hypo is you best solution against Neobenedenia, but I’m surprised that so many of them survived the paracleanse ….

I think your first drop should be a bit slower. You only need to go down to 1.012 for Neo, but you might want to go to 1,009 to control ich as well.

Here is my post about hypo:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello,

I need your help, please.

I have a Carpenter's flasher wrasse and a Pintail fairy wrasse in a 10 gal Qt tank since August 28 th. They looked healthy when they arrived. I started copper treatment with copper power at 2.25 ppm August 29 th. Both fish had been eating, but the pintail was very skittish.

First few days, all good. Both fish eating well. Pintail still skittish, but at least I could see him eating.

Things started to bother me after about 4 days. I saw the carpenter beginning to scratch on pvc tubings. Pintail started to dart like crazy, to the point he smacked himself on walls and on the plexiglass top several times. I took the decision to dose Fritz Paracleanse (september 3rd), because I suspected flukes and being in Canada, I have no access to general cure or Prazipro. I also read that it is safe to use with copper, provided there is plenty of aeration (which there is). After 48 hours, fish seemed a little better, but still not acting perfectly normal. They were eating ok, but as much as I would have hoped.

Second Paracleanse treatment after 7 days (september 10th). Carpenter's looked ok, eating well yesterday and today. Pintail did not eat since September 10th in the morning.

Today, on the afternoon, Pintail was in a corner, not moving at all. Carpenter ate, but I saw him dart and scratch again. I thus decided to do a freshwater bath to the Carpenter (but not to the pintail, because he was not feeling good enough). After 4 min, a ton of flukes started to come off the wrasse. From the eyes, skin, etc. I knew there was something wrong. Now it's confirmed : I am dealing with Neobenedenia flukes and paracleanse treatments did not work.

Note : I used paracleanse 4 times in the same quarantine tank (and same sponge filter) in the last weeks for other fish. I suspect praziquantel is no longer effective because of rapid bacterial degradation.

I think my only choice is hyposalinity. I was thinking doing a 50% waterchange this evening to bring salinity to 1.012 (it is 1.024 right now). This would also bring copper to 1.10 ppm approximately. I have cuprisorb on hand to remove the remaining copper.

Is this the best thing I could do ? I know I might not be able to save both wrasses, but I will do my best. Carpenter is not feeling good after the FW bath (probably because of the many flukes having left it's body).

How long should I do the hypo ? The Qt tank is only 10 gal, so the sooner they are out, the better, but I understand that treating adequately is the priority. I thought maybe I could do another copper treatment after the hypo. As of today, they have been in copper for 2 weeks.

Thank you in advance.

Dump the paracleanse and switch to PraziPro. As you found, Paracleanse despite its claim and the ingredients have low level of Prazi and formalin making it ineffective. Hyposalinity will offer temporary relief for flukes but not the answer. Hypo is also stressful at times to fish and fish must be monitored but should work better than paracleanse.

 

[sck90]

I think hypo is you best solution against Neobenedenia, but I’m surprised that so many of them survived the paracleanse ….

I think your first drop should be a bit slower. You only need to go down to 1.012 for Neo, but you might want to go to 1,009 to control ich as well.

Here is my post about hypo:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you, Mr Hemdal. I was hoping I could do hypo for less than 35 days. I am a little bit scared of going to 1.009, because I dont have an ATO and I must sometimes leave house for about 36h, so I am afraid I won't be able to keep 1.009 precisely...

 

[sck90]

Dump the paracleanse and switch to PraziPro. As you found, Paracleanse despite its claim and the ingredients have low level of Prazi and formalin making it ineffective. Hyposalinity will offer temporary relief for flukes but not the answer. Hypo is also stressful at times to fish and fish must be monitored but should work better than paracleanse.

Thank you. I have no access to prazipro in Canada...

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you. I have no access to prazipro in Canada...

Try pets drug mart in montreal and Ontario

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you, Mr Hemdal. I was hoping I could do hypo for less than 35 days. I am a little bit scared of going to 1.009, because I dont have an ATO and I must sometimes leave house for about 36h, so I am afraid I won't be able to keep 1.009 precisely...

For Neo, people sometimes shorten hypo to 21 days, but I don’t like to take on the risk. The life cycle indicates that the eggs must hatch in 12 days and then the hypo kills the larval flukes…but I like an extra margin of safety.

 

[sck90]

For Neo, people sometimes shorten hypo to 21 days, but I don’t like to take on the risk. The life cycle indicates that the eggs must hatch in 12 days and then the hypo kills the larval flukes…but I like an extra margin of safety.

After Hypo, should I observe only, or treat with copper again ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

After Hypo, should I observe only, or treat with copper again ?

Your copper time was a bit short. Here’s a trick though - after the fish come out of hypo, take them up to 2.25 ppm coppersafe for 72 hours, and move them out while the copper is still at full dose. That works well.

 

[sck90]

Your copper time was a bit short. Here’s a trick though - after the fish come out of hypo, take them up to 2.25 ppm coppersafe for 72 hours, and move them out while the copper is still at full dose. That works well.

Sounds good. Will do.

I will bring salinity down to 1.018 tonight and to 1.012 tomorrow pm.

Thank you very much. Appreciate your help.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sounds good. Will do.

I will bring salinity down to 1.018 tonight and to 1.012 tomorrow pm.

Thank you very much. Appreciate your help.

Dont stall it. You can drop salt level fairly quickly but need to raise VERY Slowly

 

[sck90]

Dont stall it. You can drop salt level fairly quickly but need to raise VERY Slowly

Perfect. Thank you !

 

[sck90]

UPDATE :

Fish are now in hypo at 1.010 since 1:00 pm (this gives me room if I can't top off for a day).

I am very happy : Carpenter wrasse is doing very good, swims a lot, eats a lot. Pintail is also feeling better : still skittish, but a least I just saw him pick and eat a mysis. Will feed the fish at least 3-4 times per day to make them fat again.

Thanks again for your help. I hope the entire hypo treatment will go well.

Have a nice weekend!

 

[sck90]

UPDATE :

It has now been almost 3 weeks since the beginning of the hyposalinity treatment. Until today, both wrasses handled it pretty well and were eating 2-3 times per day.

This morning, out of nowhere, the Carpenter's flasher was lying in a corner of the tank. It seemed really lethargic (for a minute, I thought it was dead). He ate very well yesterday, but not once today. He is not interested in food. He is now in a corner, behind a PVC elbow. He doesn't breathe very heavily, nor too fast.

The pintail fairy is still eating well. No change since past 2 weeks (still very skittish, but eats 2-3 times per day and looks good).

I am thinking the Carpenter's is starting to be affected by hyposalinity. He has no physical damage marks, no illness related apparent signs. I raised the salinity to 1.012 instead of 1.010. It seems maybe a little better, but it still does not want to eat.

This really sucks, I hoped the treatment would go well until end of week 4.

Do you have any idea what is going on ? What should I do ?

Thank you in advance.

Sam

 

[Jay Hemdal]

UPDATE :

It has now been almost 3 weeks since the beginning of the hyposalinity treatment. Until today, both wrasses handled it pretty well and were eating 2-3 times per day.

This morning, out of nowhere, the Carpenter's flasher was lying in a corner of the tank. It seemed really lethargic (for a minute, I thought it was dead). He ate very well yesterday, but not once today. He is not interested in food. He is now in a corner, behind a PVC elbow. He doesn't breathe very heavily, nor too fast.

The pintail fairy is still eating well. No change since past 2 weeks (still very skittish, but eats 2-3 times per day and looks good).

I am thinking the Carpenter's is starting to be affected by hyposalinity. He has no physical damage marks, no illness related apparent signs. I raised the salinity to 1.012 instead of 1.010. It seems maybe a little better, but it still does not want to eat.

This really sucks, I hoped the treatment would go well until end of week 4.

Do you have any idea what is going on ? What should I do ?

Thank you in advance.

Sam

May well be unrelated to the hypo treatment - are you seeing any edema/bloating in the wrasse?

 

[sck90]

May well be unrelated to the hypo treatment - are you seeing any edema/bloating in the wrasse?

It's hard to tell because the fish has pretty much stayed in the tank corner, just behind a pvc elbow. But from what I can see, there is no major edema or bloating. The wrasse is still alive, but didnt swim since several hours.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's hard to tell because the fish has pretty much stayed in the tank corner, just behind a pvc elbow. But from what I can see, there is no major edema or bloating. The wrasse is still alive, but didnt swim since several hours.

With a few exceptions (sharks and rays) fish will tolerate hyposalinity treatment well. However, if the fish has some kidney disfunction (a viral or bacterial disease) its ability to compensate for the salinity difference is affected and the fish may develop edema/bloating.

You could try backing the hypo off to 1.012 - that will still control flukes, but isn’t as stressful to a fish with kidney issues.

 

[sck90]

With a few exceptions (sharks and rays) fish will tolerate hyposalinity treatment well. However, if the fish has some kidney disfunction (a viral or bacterial disease) its ability to compensate for the salinity difference is affected and the fish may develop edema/bloating.

You could try backing the hypo off to 1.012 - that will still control flukes, but isn’t as stressful to a fish with kidney issues.

Thank you. I raised the salinity to 1.012 yesterday, as I figured out it would be less stessful while still controlling flukes. The fish is still alive this morning.

 

[sck90]

The Carpenter's just ate, or at least attempted to eat. It seems disoriented. Is the infamous unknown neurological problem a possibility ? It is now resting in the pvc elbow. He doesnt swim around like he used to. Please see attached youtube links.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The Carpenter's just ate, or at least attempted to eat. It seems disoriented. Is the infamous unknown neurological problem a possibility ? It is now resting in the pvc elbow. He doesnt swim around like he used to. Please see attached youtube links.

I don't see any clear evidence of UNWD, but why do you have all that eggcrate in the tank? The openings are just the wrong size for these types of wrasse - they can get really banged up if they get startled and run into them. the eggcrate on the bottom can hide uneaten food....