Metro... Side effects?

[Greyskull_714]

Ive had a pair of clownfish for about 4mo. I noticed they were getting really skinny even tho there were eating and bellies looked full. I did see some stringy white poop so I suspected internal parasites. Started treating with Metro with Focus and treated as directed. On the sixth day one of them doesnt look like its going to make it. Could it be the metro? Could it be the parasites? Should I keep treating the other clownfish? Any one have a similar experience? Any info or advice would be appreciated. TIA

 

[Jekyl]

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[Greyskull_714]

Here is some additional info below. I noticed off color patches on the dark spots.

Water quality Hanna Checker
Temperature: 77-78
pH: ~8.0
Salinity / specific gravity 1.025
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 7.6
Phosphorus .02
Copper 0
Other

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ive had a pair of clownfish for about 4mo. I noticed they were getting really skinny even tho there were eating and bellies looked full. I did see some stringy white poop so I suspected internal parasites. Started treating with Metro with Focus and treated as directed. On the sixth day one of them doesnt look like its going to make it. Could it be the metro? Could it be the parasites? Should I keep treating the other clownfish? Any one have a similar experience? Any info or advice would be appreciated. TIA

Not sure this calls for metro
White feces can be mucus in the stomach lining
Metro has to also be applied precisely and makes food taste bitter
What foods are you offering?
Is there loss of color and appetite?

 

[Jekyl]

Here is some additional info below. I noticed off color patches on the dark spots.

Water quality Hanna Checker
Temperature: 77-78
pH: ~8.0
Salinity / specific gravity 1.025
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 7.6
Phosphorus .02
Copper 0
Other

Can you please take some white light photos and video? Just to be safe and rule out any other issues.

 

[Greyskull_714]

I took him outside and a link the the recording. The spots have recently appeared. If i move him on the container he still have life but will then lay back on his side. poor guy

 

[Greyskull_714]

Also to note that the 2 clowns have been voracious eaters but over the past month or so ive noticed they have become more picky. Maybe take a bite or two and then stop eating.

 

[Greyskull_714]

Not sure this calls for metro
White feces can be mucus in the stomach lining
Metro has to also be applied precisely and makes food taste bitter
What foods are you offering?
Is there loss of color and appetite?

Ive fed them a various frozen foods like mysis, brine, etc. and some pellets. I did give them pellets when administering the metro. No loss in color but they have become pickier over time.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ive fed them a various frozen foods like mysis, brine, etc. and some pellets. I did give them pellets when administering the metro. No loss in color but they have become pickier over time.

Sorry to see. The clown in the video looks too thin to survive - they use their livers as a food source when they starve to much.

Sorry, I can't tell you what the issue is/was. Metronidazole has sort of a built-in safety valve - it is really bitter. If you get too high of a dose, the fish stop eating it....protecting them from an overdose to some degree. The proper dose for metronidazole is 1% in the food by weight. If you were just mixing focus and metro and not weighing it, the chance of getting the dose right is pretty small.

Here is some text that I wrote about mucus feces:

Excess mucus in fish feces:

This will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food. However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not “drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct. Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation resolved.

 

[Greyskull_714]

Sorry to see. The clown in the video looks too thin to survive - they use their livers as a food source when they starve to much.

Sorry, I can't tell you what the issue is/was. Metronidazole has sort of a built-in safety valve - it is really bitter. If you get too high of a dose, the fish stop eating it....protecting them from an overdose to some degree. The proper dose for metronidazole is 1% in the food by weight. If you were just mixing focus and metro and not weighing it, the chance of getting the dose right is pretty small.

Here is some text that I wrote about mucus feces:

Excess mucus in fish feces:

This will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food. However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not “drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct. Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation resolved.

This may be a silly question but is it possible the fish was used to living with the internal parasites that after treatment it may have shocked the body? idk just trying to make sense how rather healthy fish just suddenly dies....

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This may be a silly question but is it possible the fish was used to living with the internal parasites that after treatment it may have shocked the body? idk just trying to make sense how rather healthy fish just suddenly dies....

So - the flagellate protozoans that seem to be the primary disease that causes mucus feces are normal guy flora in fish. In some instances, when a fish is stressed, their numbers increase dramatically, and that's when you start to see symptoms.

 

[Greyskull_714]

So - the flagellate protozoans that seem to be the primary disease that causes mucus feces are normal guy flora in fish. In some instances, when a fish is stressed, their numbers increase dramatically, and that's when you start to see symptoms.

Do you see the off white spots on the black area on its tail and belly? do you know what that is? My other clown is getting it too

 

[Greyskull_714]

@Jekyl any assistance would be appreciated. I dont want to lose my other clown too. Should i start a copper treatment?

 

[Jekyl]

@Jekyl any assistance would be appreciated. I dont want to lose my other clown too. Should i start a copper treatment?

One Jay weighs in on a topic it's best to get info from him. His knowledge far outweighs mine and most others.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you see the off white spots on the black area on its tail and belly? do you know what that is? My other clown is getting it too

I see that, but sorry, I can't tell you what that is. Internal flagellates won't cause external lesions like that though. Trouble is, it is pretty common for a fish to have multiple problems at the same time (ugh) due to one disease issue leaving the fish predisposed to getting another one....

 

[Greyskull_714]

I see that, but sorry, I can't tell you what that is. Internal flagellates won't cause external lesions like that though. Trouble is, it is pretty common for a fish to have multiple problems at the same time (ugh) due to one disease issue leaving the fish predisposed to getting another one....

ok thank you. i appreciate the help. Hopefully he can fight this. Looking at the surviving clownfish now. The spot when away that was there this morning... interesting.

 

[Greyskull_714]

I see that, but sorry, I can't tell you what that is. Internal flagellates won't cause external lesions like that though. Trouble is, it is pretty common for a fish to have multiple problems at the same time (ugh) due to one disease issue leaving the fish predisposed to getting another one....

Do you recommend a copper treatment? Also, I noticed that clownfish will lay down flat next a hermit crab. Ever hear of such behavior? Maybe he thinks its a cleaner shrimp?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you recommend a copper treatment? Also, I noticed that clownfish will lay down flat next a hermit crab. Ever hear of such behavior? Maybe he thinks its a cleaner shrimp?

I’m not sure the laying by the hermit is - maybe coincidental?

For a copper treatment, you’d need a hospital tank - I wouldn’t go to that extreme unless the fish’s symptoms start to worsen.

 

[Greyskull_714]

I’m not sure the laying by the hermit is - maybe coincidental?

For a copper treatment, you’d need a hospital tank - I wouldn’t go to that extreme unless the fish’s symptoms start to worsen.

Yeah its weird. Ive seen him do it several times with the hermit. I would instantly think he died and was being eaten.

I lost the smaller clown of the 2. I just feel like something is wrong. They wont gain any weight. I have another fish coming soon that I will qt. If the copper will help him I was just going to add him with the other qt fish.