Losing fish puzzled?

[mdrobc13]

Okay interested in some help here. Believe that my Red Sea 1000G2 has a problem and somewhere I've inadvertently introduced a sick fish which has taken hold over the last few months and need some help advise. Tank is 10 mos old and started with Biota yellow tang and small purple tang and sailfin tang which are doing well. Added diamond goby and an emperor angel and chromis as well as hippo tang x2 small and did well. Initial fish went thru quick QT of 2 weeks in copper but didn't monitor levels as they were the first fish and it was a sterile environment. yes I know.... Then made the mistake of adding a PBT who I was QT'd for 3 weeks and some others but died after I went out of town for 10 days after adding. My son was monitoring the tank and didn't feed or watch things as much as I asked. This was in March/April 2023.

Fast forward to now and I've lost multiple fish after attempting to add an Achilles Tang to the tank who I thought came from a reputable source. Since then have lost a Majestic Angel and med convict tang 2-3 weeks ago and just recently lost a lemon peel angel and a clown tang (added last week) along with my med-large lt tang (which had been in tank for 3.5 weeks and was eating well). Last set were from trusted LFS and healthy upon addition as had been observed in LFS for >3 weeks. LFS treats their holding tank fish before moving to main display so yes I get it now that whatever is going on is in my tank. Also used Safety Stop dips 30 mins each prior to introducing fish direct from non-QT'd sources like with Majestic Angel video.

Steps taken (other than stop adding fish) have been added 57w UV sterilizer to sump about 2 mos ago. Started ich mgmt method treating fish with selcon, vita chem dipped brine/sprilluna and pellets as well as adding Metroplex + Kanaplex + Focus daily and ensuring nori was available regularly. Sp gv=1.023-1.025, temp of tank 78-80, pH 7.8-80, Ammonia=0.0, Nitrite=0, Nitrate=0.5. Hanna checkers. Phosphate elevated as I've been trying to fight off some hair algae but that is it. So parameters are okay. Tank has mostly soft corals and zoos and palys as well as GSP and some acros and gonyosporias so can't treat it as they are all attached to rather large rockscaping (its 200+ gals up top and 60+ in the sump included). So can't treat main tank...not an option really...not a cheap one as loss of corals would be almost $1k plus.

Added background....have been at this hobby since 2008 so not new to the game and have seen ich and velvet before but this one is new...I say that as my original fish from 6 mos are FINE. The PBT and YT are okay swim happiyly and eat normally. Diamond Goby is also fine. Hippo tang the same as are about 3-4 chromis, and 2 maroon clowns in the tank. Yellow Corris wrase and Melanarios wrasse along with fox face all act normally, eat normally, no flashing, nor heavy breathing and no spots. While observed my Lt Tang before he passed this weekend swiming in my reef wave gyres at night [noticed when I got home from trip] which he wasn't doing before and same with the Achilles before he passed after normal swimming for days before he two passed. All stopped eating also and less active before their demise where I either found them dead or observed the behavor such as wave/pump surfing in evening. So I am perplexed here...as velvet does act like this but kills quickly and I've got long term LIVE fish that seem to be immune to it and ICH should be beatable with healthy and nourished fish as well as medicated ones.

So what gives? Have I created a franken ich-velvet-brook that is super resistant and inoculated my current main set of fish to it? If so does treating them help in QT at all? Am open to any suggestions....current plan. fish trap on order from BRS as I can't get them all given large tank and rockscape...55 gal purchased (have 3 10gal QT tanks running now) and plan to move them all to the 55gal and keep them there for 8 weeks or so while treat with Coppersafe (what I was using in my QTs prior) and then let tank run and just treat corals and my existing cleaner shrimp pending re-introduction. But what guys am I missing here..anything?

 

[1112-425XL]

Bump

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Let me preface by saying after-the-fact diagnosis of a long-term issue is very difficult. it may well be that there were multiple reasons for these fish losses, so trying to pin it on one issue will likely be incorrect.

From the videos I see these issues:

Two of the tangs were scrapping - this can cause direct damage, as well as chronic stress.
A Ctenocheatus tang was really thin, not sure why.
In the first video, all of the fish are breathing too fast.
The powder blue tang has "lumpy skin", a sign of ectoparasites in that species.
Rock Beauties are delicate long-term, this one is doing well, so on that basis, I would rule out dietary and water quality issues.

Does the tank have good aeration? Not just circulation, but something vigorously breaking the surface tension in the tank, making bubbles?

Safety Stop is not a full complete method of quarantining fish, I think their ads even say that. It is a "better than nothing" method. Never use it on shipped-in fish though, the formalin is too stressful on fish that have been shipped.

Metroplex+Kanaplex in Focus? - I hear that all the time, but it is a flawed treatment and should never be done unless you calculate the proper dosage. There is NO way you can just mix these up and expect to get a proper dose. To little and the fish won't be cured, too much metro and it is so bitter, the fish won't eat it and too much Kanaplex is toxic.

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

I would follow your plan with one addition - giving the fish a 5 minute FW dip as you move them to the QT, then run coppersafe for 30 days, then two rounds of Prazipro or General Cure, spaced 8 days apart (in case there are flukes).

Jay

 

[mdrobc13]

Jay
thanks for the in depth reply. Yes agree many things going on all at once and some longer term than others. I think ich is the culprit mostly as I don't see how the existing crew could have survived velvet for so long...we're talking since like early Feb/Mar or longer especially for the PT and YT who both are strong and healthy and eating well still and unbothered.

Saw some scraping and the thin Ctenocheatus came from fish store that way...hoped to fatten him up but lost em too. What are ectoparasites and how recognized and treated? Not sure have good SA on that or had it before but know a thin tang is not a good one and a lumpy AND thin one is definitely not good.

Rock beauty starved itself or got same thing as the majestic and had washed out appearance like in the picture above...was a bit earlier and majestic came 1 mo after. LFS said bacterial infection and suggested Metroplex + Kanaplex which is why I started it as figured if immune system was up to par fish would fight off ich easily. Will take a look at your link supplied and added posts. Water quality isn't an issue just could do more frequent water changes like most of us and aeration is 2 Reef Wave 45s mounted on my overflows and returns that break water surface some but a Nero or other wave maker on side of tank could help with flow for sure as more helps. Before I had 2 MP40s and 2 MP20s on my Waterbox 130.4 and had no problems but sold them when moved and got new tank. Any suggestions anyone or are those still the baseline for that purpsoe?

Copy on the safety stop but then why do the online FS supply it with their fish? Figured already been and made it thru shipping overnight so 30 min Safety Stop shouldn't hurt that much but see your point. Fresh water dip prior to QT then is your suggestion? I had done Prazi Pro also before QT but which one is better? My good buddy suggests tank transfer plus Copper however not sure of sequence but says it has worked for him in similar situation. What is General Cure? Also does Ruby Red help? What about Ich Attack am using now in small quantities in Dt now as its a herbal...seen mixed reviews but better than nothing until I can get the large QT set up.

Current plan is still as note with inputs...just waiting on stand for 55gal to arrive and fish trap from BRS next week and then can get this party started.

Anything needed to do for corals and rock and/or inverts in tank now that will remain? Don't think they contribute to current issue from what I've read.

Let me preface by saying after-the-fact diagnosis of a long-term issue is very difficult. it may well be that there were multiple reasons for these fish losses, so trying to pin it on one issue will likely be incorrect.

From the videos I see these issues:

Two of the tangs were scrapping - this can cause direct damage, as well as chronic stress.
A Ctenocheatus tang was really thin, not sure why.
In the first video, all of the fish are breathing too fast.
The powder blue tang has "lumpy skin", a sign of ectoparasites in that species.
Rock Beauties are delicate long-term, this one is doing well, so on that basis, I would rule out dietary and water quality issues.

Does the tank have good aeration? Not just circulation, but something vigorously breaking the surface tension in the tank, making bubbles?

Safety Stop is not a full complete method of quarantining fish, I think their ads even say that. It is a "better than nothing" method. Never use it on shipped-in fish though, the formalin is too stressful on fish that have been shipped.

Metroplex+Kanaplex in Focus? - I hear that all the time, but it is a flawed treatment and should never be done unless you calculate the proper dosage. There is NO way you can just mix these up and expect to get a proper dose. To little and the fish won't be cured, too much metro and it is so bitter, the fish won't eat it and too much Kanaplex is toxic.

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

I would follow your plan with one addition - giving the fish a 5 minute FW dip as you move them to the QT, then run coppersafe for 30 days, then two rounds of Prazipro or General Cure, spaced 8 days apart (in case there are flukes).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

"...figured if immune system was up to par fish would fight off ich easily." - that isn't really true. Fish immune systems are not evolved to handle ectoparasites very well. The example I give is; feed your dog really well and keep it super healthy - then take it for a walk in a field, if ticks are there, it is going to get them despite having a top notch immune system.

Formalin is the issue with Safety Stop - it is a strong reducing agent, and using it on freshly shipped fish is a real problem. About 25 years ago, I came up with a "triage" method for our incoming fish - it involved a formalin dip and antibiotic, very similar to Safety Stop (which I don't think was even on the market yet). I ran some tests and saw such higher-than-normal mortality, that I stopped using that method after a few months.

For the rock/corals in you DT, once all the fish are out, just leave the tank fishless for 60 days and any fish parasites will have died out.

Jay

 

[mdrobc13]

Another point of interest..spoke with LFS manager and one thing noted when looking over my tank parameters is my ALK is off the chart. 16.8dka using Hanna Checker. I had started dosing recently in May when I set up my Apex DOS doser and plugged in the required suggested dose per Red Sea's Reef Calf for my type of corals and water volume. It was telling me to dose 120ml approx a day of Red Sea Foundation B (Alk/Kh) which I did. However just learned after talking to the mgr and a few others that the dose was in error. Red Sea bases calculations on full stocked reef tank and no way does my tank need that much as I have min coral and most is softies that I am starting to grow out. Thus using their calculated dose is likely why my Alk is super high and they suspect I keep losing new fish. They just can't adjust to it... Why Red Sea gives you those numbers on their online calculator without any disclaimer [or maybe i missed it] don't know but also should have checked my numbers a bit more I guess...as its been that high for now at least 3 mos.

High alk and shipment and acclimation along with new tank mates stresses out already stressed new fish added. The don't eat, hide, and act wierd then succumb to ich which is already present in the tank and die. Current inhabitants [purple tang, yellow tang, hippo tang, diamond goby, fox face, maroon clowns, yellow wrasse, melanarus wrase, green chromis, and various shrimp and snails/crabs] have become used to the high/elevated Alk levels as they all have been in the tank >4+ mos...and thus they eat okay and act normally and do not seem to succumb to ich or any illness that newcomers do. Tested Alk yesterday and still 16.9 dka. Tested my QT tank and it was 8.2 dka so Hanna Checker is accurate. I had cut Foundation B dose in 1/2 but will drop it again to 1/4 of that 20ml/day until the Alk gets under control. Rest of water parameters were okay other than higher Mg (1530) than target. Sp Gv=1.027, Ph=7.9, Nitrite=59, Anomia=0.1, Phos-0.90, Ca=4.01. Temp=78.3 using Hana checker and refractometer. So looks like I have work to do. Am setting up 55gal QT now to go with my 2 10gal ones already running and will try to catch the tangs and treat them as they are the ones who love ich and probably are my carriers in the tank. My 2 wrasses will probably be impossible to catch as will my Foxface...they have proven to be increadibly fast in the past and add the spines and well we'll see. Fish trap has arrived and so once the 55gal cycles can add copper safe and then we can see how things go.

Happy for any thoughts or comments/suggestions.

 

[mdrobc13]

QT is now set up and quick cycling with bio-media. Am correct in not using rock or filter from DT correct? So starting fresh. Had to wait for new garage shevling to set up proper organized QT setup. Will start to add Coppersafe tomorrow before any fish caught from main tank. Can I or should I also add Prazi Pro to QT as same time? I did set up my 10 gal tanks too and could use those for separate Prazi Pro treatments if needed. What would you guys advise with this set up as to how to go about this if doing Prazi treatment also.

One QT does have newly added Teneti (Lt) tang replacement for the one I lost...Fresh tank and water and he is doing well. Copper measured w/API at 0,25 so waiting also for more reagent for my Hanna Copper checker now before dosing so I am clear where I stand.

Remaining fish in DT are all okay and eating and acting normally. No more additional deaths or sick fish. Have started to correct Alk.Dka issue using AquaVitro Balance and will retest results tomorrow but so far PH seems to be moving up a bit and closer to goal 8.0-8.2, Anything else recommended?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

QT is now set up and quick cycling with bio-media. Am correct in not using rock or filter from DT correct? So starting fresh. Had to wait for new garage shevling to set up proper organized QT setup. Will start to add Coppersafe tomorrow before any fish caught from main tank. Can I or should I also add Prazi Pro to QT as same time? I did set up my 10 gal tanks too and could use those for separate Prazi Pro treatments if needed. What would you guys advise with this set up as to how to go about this if doing Prazi treatment also.

One QT does have newly added Teneti (Lt) tang replacement for the one I lost...Fresh tank and water and he is doing well. Copper measured w/API at 0,25 so waiting also for more reagent for my Hanna Copper checker now before dosing so I am clear where I stand.

Remaining fish in DT are all okay and eating and acting normally. No more additional deaths or sick fish. Have started to correct Alk.Dka issue using AquaVitro Balance and will retest results tomorrow but so far PH seems to be moving up a bit and closer to goal 8.0-8.2, Anything else recommended?

You should not move calcium-based media over tot eh new tank, but moving non-calcium filter media over is a great way to jump start the cycle - remember that you don't have to worry about moving any disease over, since you'll be moving the fish and they already have the disease.

You say copper is at 0.25? That's low for coppersafe, it should be at 2.25

I've never heard of high alkalinity causing problems with fish, but maybe?

You can dose prazi and copper at the same time with good aeration. I normally try to avoid that, but since we don't know the issue here, you might want to do so?

Jay

 

[mdrobc13]

You should not move calcium-based media over tot eh new tank, but moving non-calcium filter media over is a great way to jump start the cycle - remember that you don't have to worry about moving any disease over, since you'll be moving the fish and they already have the disease.

You say copper is at 0.25? That's low for coppersafe, it should be at 2.25

I've never heard of high alkalinity causing problems with fish, but maybe?

You can dose prazi and copper at the same time with good aeration. I normally try to avoid that, but since we don't know the issue here, you might want to do so?

Jay

Jay
Thanks...yes am slowly increasing Copper but that level was using API which don't trust accuracy and need to wait for additional Hanna Copper reagent to arrive before I put fish in so can accurately monitor levels. Otherwise I can take a piece of live rock out of the DT and place it in the QT to help jump the cycle but assume that rock is then DOA due to copper afterwards. Also does that make reaching an accurate and stable copper level more difficult as the rock would always be absorbing copper?

The Alk being that high the theory was is adding to stress new fish already have when being introduced to the DT so that I am nuking their immune systems with stress from introduction and water quality and add ich that some fish are just not able to handle it. Also may have a combo of things going on as you guys suggest along with ich...not velvet thank god. Remaining fish are still doing good, acting normal and eating and everything.

Can I or should I dose Prazi to the main tank too? Will it affect the corals if so? A friend suggested I try Ich Attack in the main DT tank...anyone had any luck? What about Ruby Rally Red?

Also I did take the time and get into my APEX and re-calibrated it. My PH was reading 7.7-7.8 but after using new calibration solution it now reads properly (8.0-8.1). Temp was also off but only by 0.3 degrees! Salt was off severely reading 56 prior conductivity and now reads 32.2 which is more consistent (but was using refractometer to test manually so knew it was 1.023-.025 and stable. So one more thing down...more accurate water quality to not worry about/cross off. Thanks

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay
Thanks...yes am slowly increasing Copper but that level was using API which don't trust accuracy and need to wait for additional Hanna Copper reagent to arrive before I put fish in so can accurately monitor levels. Otherwise I can take a piece of live rock out of the DT and place it in the QT to help jump the cycle but assume that rock is then DOA due to copper afterwards. Also does that make reaching an accurate and stable copper level more difficult as the rock would always be absorbing copper?

The Alk being that high the theory was is adding to stress new fish already have when being introduced to the DT so that I am nuking their immune systems with stress from introduction and water quality and add ich that some fish are just not able to handle it. Also may have a combo of things going on as you guys suggest along with ich...not velvet thank god. Remaining fish are still doing good, acting normal and eating and everything.

Can I or should I dose Prazi to the main tank too? Will it affect the corals if so? A friend suggested I try Ich Attack in the main DT tank...anyone had any luck? What about Ruby Rally Red?

Also I did take the time and get into my APEX and re-calibrated it. My PH was reading 7.7-7.8 but after using new calibration solution it now reads properly (8.0-8.1). Temp was also off but only by 0.3 degrees! Salt was off severely reading 56 prior conductivity and now reads 32.2 which is more consistent (but was using refractometer to test manually so knew it was 1.023-.025 and stable. So one more thing down...more accurate water quality to not worry about/cross off. Thanks

Using calcareous rock with copper is an issue because it will remove copper from the water at varying rates, so it is difficult to dose properly. Then, as you understand, the rock is no longer usable in reef tanks.

The trouble is a low dose of copper offers no benefit. The idea of slowly needing to ramp up copper is based solely on ionic copper, you are using coppersafe, right? If so, if you know the actual volume of the tank (water volume after rock displacement, etc.), you can dose based on that. If you do not know the actual volume of the tank, you should be able to estimate it and dose to 80% of that value until you get the Hanna checker.

You can dose the DT with Praziquantel powder or Prazipro. You may find some of the corals will close up a bit, but if you aerate the water well and dose accurately, they should be fine.

Jay