Lonely? Clownfish in QT starving

[Gretchacha]

I have an occelaris in QT that has not eaten in 10 days and is getting very weak. Can a fish die of loneliness? 5 weeks ago we picked up 3 fish from LFS: 1 occelaris, 1 flame hawkfish, and 1 royal gramma. They all went into a 10 minute ruby reef hydroplex dip and then a fully cycled QT with fiji pink sand and a branacle cluster. 36 hours later the gramma had died hiding in the barnacle. I removed the barnacle. 10 days later the flame hawk had velvet. I gave the clownfish and hawk a dip in 150 ppm H2O2 and cleaned the tank, removing the sand to bare bottom. QT was reset with ruby reef rally and dropping salinity for 3 days. The hawkfish seemed to recover. I removed everything and cleaned again while the fish bathed in light methylene blue. Transferrd tank to copper power at 1 ml/gallon about 1.7 ppm. One week later the hawkfish had velvet again. I bathed both fish again in H2O2 followed with rally, but hawk didn’t make it in Rally. Through all of this, the clownfish was always hanging out with the hawkfish and snuggling him, for kack of a better term. He even was nudgeing the hawkfish in the last bath as I was trying to make him breath. The clownfish bever showed any symptoms of velvet, but he seemed to lose his appetite along the way. After the hawkfish died, i set the QT up with copper power again and added decor to help him stress less and brought the salinity back up because apparently that’s not even effective for velvet. I also noticed his poop was white and stringy, so I dosed API General Cure every other day 4 times to water. He would not eat the medicated food I made. His poop is still stringy and white, but that could just be starvation mucus. Is it possible he is lonely? I still don’t see any outward symptoms. Yesterday I sanitized the tank again with h2o2 and gave him a bath of it and added all clean water no meds and freshly hatched bbs. He is still not eating.

 

[blaxsun]

Flagged for the [HASH=55964]#fishmedic[/HASH].

 

[KrisReef]

I’m sorry for your fish qt performance. Watching fish grow sick and die is horrible. Im not going to recommend that you add the clownfish into your display tank now but it seems sad that you didn’t add them into the dt when you first got them. A healthy aquarium will provide the best place for new fish to move into. The actions of the clown nudging the hawk while it was still alive is a pathetic scene to have witnessed. I think the clown is losing hope in the qt. Fish that stop eating are not going to live long unless they change their behavior. What would you think would make the fish change its mind?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I have an occelaris in QT that has not eaten in 10 days and is getting very weak. Can a fish die of loneliness? 5 weeks ago we picked up 3 fish from LFS: 1 occelaris, 1 flame hawkfish, and 1 royal gramma. They all went into a 10 minute ruby reef hydroplex dip and then a fully cycled QT with fiji pink sand and a branacle cluster. 36 hours later the gramma had died hiding in the barnacle. I removed the barnacle. 10 days later the flame hawk had velvet. I gave the clownfish and hawk a dip in 150 ppm H2O2 and cleaned the tank, removing the sand to bare bottom. QT was reset with ruby reef rally and dropping salinity for 3 days. The hawkfish seemed to recover. I removed everything and cleaned again while the fish bathed in light methylene blue. Transferrd tank to copper power at 1 ml/gallon about 1.7 ppm. One week later the hawkfish had velvet again. I bathed both fish again in H2O2 followed with rally, but hawk didn’t make it in Rally. Through all of this, the clownfish was always hanging out with the hawkfish and snuggling him, for kack of a better term. He even was nudgeing the hawkfish in the last bath as I was trying to make him breath. The clownfish bever showed any symptoms of velvet, but he seemed to lose his appetite along the way. After the hawkfish died, i set the QT up with copper power again and added decor to help him stress less and brought the salinity back up because apparently that’s not even effective for velvet. I also noticed his poop was white and stringy, so I dosed API General Cure every other day 4 times to water. He would not eat the medicated food I made. His poop is still stringy and white, but that could just be starvation mucus. Is it possible he is lonely? I still don’t see any outward symptoms. Yesterday I sanitized the tank again with h2o2 and gave him a bath of it and added all clean water no meds and freshly hatched bbs. He is still not eating.

Can you post video of clown under white lighting of at least 20 seconds?
The reason I have no use for hydroplex. Its ok as a dip but literally useless. Also too many meds applied based on guesswork.
Hydroplex contains capric Triglyceride ehich is coconut oil, preservatives, methylparben which is an anti-fungal agent and octyldodecanol which is a solvent used for acne treatment, unless your fish has acne??

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ten days without eating is very serious - I'm not sure what you can do to get it started again. Here are some general comments though:

IMO - Fish don't get lonely, at least not to the point of not eating. I have a Darwin clown looking at me in my office right now who has lived solo for 2+ years and he is looking great.

You employed a lot of treatments in a short time. That causes what I call "hunt and seek" - changing treatments before one treatment has time to work effectively. For example, for ich, it takes copper up to three days to even start to turn the infection around.

Then, some of the treatments you tried are not very effective: Hydroplex as mentioned. Also, if the fish did indeed have velvet, lowering the salinity actually helps make that infection worse (although it is effective for ich and flukes). Hydrogen peroxide only works if you dip the fish and then move it to a new, non-infected tank.

Jay

 

[Gretchacha]

Ten days without eating is very serious - I'm not sure what you can do to get it started again. Here are some general comments though:

IMO - Fish don't get lonely, at least not to the point of not eating. I have a Darwin clown looking at me in my office right now who has lived solo for 2+ years and he is looking great.

You employed a lot of treatments in a short time. That causes what I call "hunt and seek" - changing treatments before one treatment has time to work effectively. For example, for ich, it takes copper up to three days to even start to turn the infection around.

Then, some of the treatments you tried are not very effective: Hydroplex as mentioned. Also, if the fish did indeed have velvet, lowering the salinity actually helps make that infection worse (although it is effective for ich and flukes). Hydrogen peroxide only works if you dip the fish and then move it to a new, non-infected tank.


Please realize this timeframe is over 5 weeks. The first approach was that the fish were healthy and would be observed in a comfy QT after a gentle dip and then be moved to DT after 30 days. That was disrailed 10 days later with the hawkfish velvet. At which point the strategy changed to humble.fish protocol. It was several days in that I found out hypo is not effective for velvet, and slowly corrected so as not to shock. So I haven’t been treating willy-nilly. I can’t finish the copper treatment because he is not eating and he will die of starvation. He has never shown any symptoms of velvet. He is not shy of light, no white, no clamped fins, no fast breathing. So at this point, copper would only be treating the tank and dormant cysts which I forgot the name of.

I need to get him eating to save him.
What I really want to know is if there is any way to entice him to eat. I’m still not sure if he has internal parasites of any form.

 

[Gretchacha]

I’m sorry for your fish qt performance. Watching fish grow sick and die is horrible. Im not going to recommend that you add the clownfish into your display tank now but it seems sad that you didn’t add them into the dt when you first got them. A healthy aquarium will provide the best place for new fish to move into. The actions of the clown nudging the hawk while it was still alive is a pathetic scene to have witnessed. I think the clown is losing hope in the qt. Fish that stop eating are not going to live long unless they change their behavior. What would you think would make the fish change its mind?

It was so heart wrenching. He was clearly attached to the hawkfish. They were like Ernie and Bert. I have read of paired clownfish acting despondent and dying shortly after their mate passed. I’m not sure fish can’t die of sadness, though it seems unusual.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I need to get him eating to save him.
What I really want to know is if there is any way to entice him to eat. I’m still not sure if he has internal parasites of any form.

Well, I think a short video of the fish taken under white light and your water chemistry readings would be the next step.

I’m struggling to unpack all of the treatments and symptoms here. For example, I’m not confident of the velvet diagnosis, the primary symptom with that disease is rapid breathing followed by death in a few days, no survivors unless a treatment is done: copper at 2.5 ppm, or 100 ppm peroxide dips and moving to a sterile tank.
Jay

 

[Gretchacha]

Well, I think a short video of the fish taken under white light and your water chemistry readings would be the next step.

I’m struggling to unpack all of the treatments and symptoms here. For example, I’m not confident of the velvet diagnosis, the primary symptom with that disease is rapid breathing followed by death in a few days, no survivors unless a treatment is done: copper at 2.5 ppm, or 100 ppm peroxide dips and moving to a sterile tank.
Jay

The clownfish has always been asymptomatic. He was started in QT with two other fish that have since perished and the 2nd fish to perish, the flame hawkfish, was definitely velvet. The first fish , the royal gramma, was likely velvet without skin symptoms.
once velvet was identified with the hawkfish, bith of these fish were subjected to ½ hr 150 ppm H2O2 bath while sterilizing and resetting the QT. They had 3 days of Rally, which is a choice fir velvet, followed by copper power starting at 1.75 ppm. The hawkfish improved initially, but a week later was reinfected. His symptoms both times were a fine, even, white haze on his skin including his black eye bands. He stayed in a corner breathing heavily. He was sensitive to light. I repeated the process again after he showed symptoms the second time, but he did not make it through the rally bath. The clown was put back in the resterilized tank with copper power at 1.75 ppm and increased to 2.5 ppm over 3 days. This second time, rally was only a bath, not a tank treatment. He also got General cure every 48 hrs by tank water, as he would not eat and his poop was stringy and white. He is currently in sg 1.023, no ammonia, nitrate, etc. no meds. Water changes gave been 100% with tank sanitized with H2O2 3% or bleach solution. Filtration/circulation/aeration has varied throughout depending on what else is in the tank. Once he was alone and looked stressed, I added fake reef decor, which gas helped the stress significantly.

 

[Gretchacha]

Here is a video from earlier today. He is not enjoying the attention from the phone.

 

[Gretchacha]

What else could have killed the royal gramma without symptoms other than hiding, and then the hawkfish with the symptoms described? The sensitivity to light and the fine white film seems like velvet

 

[Gretchacha]

This might be helpful. The hawkfish….

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The clownfish has always been asymptomatic. He was started in QT with two other fish that have since perished and the 2nd fish to perish, the flame hawkfish, was definitely velvet. The first fish , the royal gramma, was likely velvet without skin symptoms.
once velvet was identified with the hawkfish, bith of these fish were subjected to ½ hr 150 ppm H2O2 bath while sterilizing and resetting the QT. They had 3 days of Rally, which is a choice fir velvet, followed by copper power starting at 1.75 ppm. The hawkfish improved initially, but a week later was reinfected. His symptoms both times were a fine, even, white haze on his skin including his black eye bands. He stayed in a corner breathing heavily. He was sensitive to light. I repeated the process again after he showed symptoms the second time, but he did not make it through the rally bath. The clown was put back in the resterilized tank with copper power at 1.75 ppm and increased to 2.5 ppm over 3 days. This second time, rally was only a bath, not a tank treatment. He also got General cure every 48 hrs by tank water, as he would not eat and his poop was stringy and white. He is currently in sg 1.023, no ammonia, nitrate, etc. no meds. Water changes gave been 100% with tank sanitized with H2O2 3% or bleach solution. Filtration/circulation/aeration has varied throughout depending on what else is in the tank. Once he was alone and looked stressed, I added fake reef decor, which gas helped the stress significantly.

The clownfish isn’t showing any overt symptoms, but tough to see with it hiding behind the decorations. It is swimming well and breathing slow.
The hawk fish visually looks like they do with flukes - rapid breathing and pale coloration. However, the multiple general cure treatments would lead away from that diagnosis. It could also
Just some more observations - you noted a couple of times that you moved fish to sterilized tanks, but I didn’t see that you subsequently measured ammonia and what test you used for that. Ammonia can be really insidious - it’s toxicity is pH dependent and ammonia can build up much faster than people realize. Nobody can say if the white feces you saw are from internal infection or from dietary upset.

There are other rarer diseases that can cause symptoms like this, viruses and microsporidians, but those do not normally affect all fish of a variety of species.

Ultimately, two truisms come into play here: solving a problem before fish loss happens is always best, and trying to figure reasons for fish loss after the fact is difficult, often impossible.

Jay

 

[Gretchacha]

The clownfish isn’t showing any overt symptoms, but tough to see with it hiding behind the decorations. It is swimming well and breathing slow.
The hawk fish visually looks like they do with flukes - rapid breathing and pale coloration. However, the multiple general cure treatments would lead away from that diagnosis. It could also
Just some more observations - you noted a couple of times that you moved fish to sterilized tanks, but I didn’t see that you subsequently measured ammonia and what test you used for that. Ammonia can be really insidious - it’s toxicity is pH dependent and ammonia can build up much faster than people realize. Nobody can say if the white feces you saw are from internal infection or from dietary upset.

There are other rarer diseases that can cause symptoms like this, viruses and microsporidians, but those do not normally affect all fish of a variety of species.

Ultimately, two truisms come into play here: solving a problem before fish loss happens is always best, and trying to figure reasons for fish loss after the fact is difficult, often impossible.

Jay

Again, my primary concern right now is getting him to eat. Hence all meds and hypo were stopped. How can I entice him to eat or force feed him.
secondary concern if he starts eating will be correct diagnosis of anything he could have picked up from first two fishes. But I will be focusing my efforts on making him healthy and resilient versus medicating.

to the secondary question of correct diagnosis: The hawkfish whitened from the bottom up and more intensely over time. When I changed from thinking Stress (of any sort) to thinking Velvet was the black eye markings going white and the light sensitivity. I agree flukes seem unlikely with these treatments, which was part of the intention with the treatment choices. My philosophy being to treat the main issue and any secondary issues. Hence the MB bath.
Why would you think ammonia? That looks like hanging near the top and red streaky gill area. The lack of providing exact detail of 5 weeks of daily work on the fish doesn’t mean there was a lack. There were/are standard aquarium maintenance in place (ie an ammonia badge and water changes with ph/salinity/medication adjustments and light feedings). He currently has an oase biomaster filter with chemical filtration to take care of any ammonia.

 

[Gretchacha]

The clownfish isn’t showing any overt symptoms, but tough to see with it hiding behind the decorations. It is swimming well and breathing slow.
The hawk fish visually looks like they do with flukes - rapid breathing and pale coloration. However, the multiple general cure treatments would lead away from that diagnosis. It could also
Just some more observations - you noted a couple of times that you moved fish to sterilized tanks, but I didn’t see that you subsequently measured ammonia and what test you used for that. Ammonia can be really insidious - it’s toxicity is pH dependent and ammonia can build up much faster than people realize. Nobody can say if the white feces you saw are from internal infection or from dietary upset.

There are other rarer diseases that can cause symptoms like this, viruses and microsporidians, but those do not normally affect all fish of a variety of species.

Ultimately, two truisms come into play here: solving a problem before fish loss happens is always best, and trying to figure reasons for fish loss after the fact is difficult, often impossible.

Jay

Morning video today. Still not eating. I tried soaking a variety of dry and frozen foods in fresh garlic extract.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Morning video today. Still not eating. I tried soaking a variety of dry and frozen foods in fresh garlic extract.

Chronic anorexia is a tough one. without identifying and correcting the underlying issue, no "attractants" are going to work. Trouble is, in this case, we can't identify the issue.

Here is an article I wrote about this symptom, maybe it will help you by striking a chord regarding a possible cause?

Chronic Anorexia in Aquarium Fishes

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the fish will begin feeding when it gets hungry enough, or conclude it must be eating something, just not when you are watching.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[Gretchacha]

Thank you, I will read this and give it some thought.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you, I will read this and give it some thought.

The only chance is with live foods such as Brine shrimp or blackworms, but if fish has internal or other conditions, may not eat at all

 

[KrisReef]

Thank you, I will read this and give it some thought.

I agree with the suggestion of live foods. The next suggestion is to destress the environment. This is not as easy to calculate as medication dosage but easier because you have a lot of control over the process.
Your concern needs to be refocused into compassion. The next step is going to sound wacko, perhaps, but it can change the trajectory that the clownfish seems to be headed.
After you pray and ask for Devine intervention into the situation and get the load of stress off your chest before you approach the tank and talk with the fish about the situation. What you explain is roughly;
“You are sad that the other 2 fishes perished and that was not what you intended.”
(Your post and replies clearly indicate that you took extremely good care to properly quarantine all of these fishes which is a good but sadly rare thing statistically among this hobby, imo/one.)
Your intention is to provide a safe , peaceful and healthy habitat for all of the fishes in the tank under your care. You want the fish to eat and live a long happy life in the DT tank that has (whatever other species of life and habitat provisions) that the fish can live out its life in captivity.

When I bring home fish, when allowed I will net or bag the fish by hand from the lfs and quietly tell it to relax and then explain my intentions not to eat it first and then the same thing already discussed above. When I get home I retell the story of my intentions and ask the fish to eat well and be happy because it will have a safe place to live. For jumpers I encourage and instruct them not to jump or they may die if they leave the tank. I don’t take a long time doing this, I just make certain that I communicate the details of the situation, ask them not to be angry with me since I didn’t net them out of the wild, but promise to provide a good home that is better than the holding tanks that they were exposed to along the way.
Finally I open the bag over the top of the tank where they are going to live, gently cupping them with one or two hands and lift them out of the bag and letting most of the bag water to drain back into the bag before I release them into the DTSC where they can meet the other fishes and explore the hiding places for cover.
I feed the dt before the release and after the fish has settled in I feed again. The second feeding let’s the new fish have an opportunity to eat and it lets the other fish know that food competition is not a thing since I feed them routinely, as neede.

I am going to the fish market today to buy some fresh fish, shellfish and shrimp that I chop up and freeze for later. Lots of people post on here about making their own fish cubes. I don’t know if anyone else has posted a thread about hand acclimating and “dumping” new fish? Lots of people do not qt, I have great respect for folks like yourself who do it according to reasonable standards and protocols that make sense.
I have hesitated to post what I just posted because I don’t want people to discuss /attack my mental state because of my homeopathic (unscientifically proven) methods which I admit up front appear to be screw-loose and shamanic, magical and mystical and likely dangerous.

You have an excellent perspective on fish medication, my method may be more about fish meditation?
I humbly request that you consider the practice, and adapt some, all or none to your own methods. I hope that your fish changes its mind and starts eating again.

Respectfully
(I learnt that closing word from @Lasse -who may not endorse my method like @Paul B may?)
Kris Reef

 

[Lasse]

I have hesitated to post what I just posted because I don’t want people to discuss /attack my mental state because of my homeopathic (unscientifically proven) methods which I admit up front appear to be screw-loose and shamanic, magical and mystical and likely dangerous.

I can´t see that your method is more screw-loose, shamanic, magical and mystical and likely dangerous than those methods that use prophylactic treatments with drugs that´s either not tested on the actual species or content a not known unique blend of trade secret anti-microbial formulations (from here).

I have no single idea what HydroPlex™ from Ruby reef contain but it has a trade mark - it means that the name is protected to one product. A search for HydroPlex™ shows to be very interesting. Plexus is a supplement company that sells products that claims improve overall health in humans. According to this sheet it contains a lot of ingredient's that is questionable - at least in the concentrations used here.

As I said before - I have no idea if Ruby Reefs HydroPlex™ is identical with Plexus HydroPlex™ bu the ™ indicate that they are the same- and IMO - to sell or recommend products like this is more screw-loosen and likely more dangerous than just release and pray



Sincerely Lasse