Is it possible to raise PH too fast?

[Fakegolfnews]

I want to add an airstone to the back chamber of my AIO to raise my PH. The tank is only 10 gallons. Is it possible this will raise my PH too much or too fast?

 

[Bored_shrimp]

From my understanding of water chemistry and the effects of an air stone on PH, If you have a low amount of oxygen in your water and a high amount of CO2 I think it was then the air stone will make the ph rise, I wouldn't be to worried about it rising too fast in this case cause it's just adding an air stone and the most it will raise it I imagine if your tank is well oxygenated isn't going to be much. If you have surface agitation then that will do the same as an air stone like if you had a wave maker pointed upward at the surface of the water. Where as it is possible to raise PH too fast and shock a fish and make them not do well I wouldn't think it would do that in this case cause it has to be by quite a bit for that to happen. If it ends up even raising it by .3 or maybe even more I would imagine your fish wouldn't mind that much because it would raise over time and not all at once. The only thing it would do is increases oxygenation if your tank isn't already highly saturated with oxygen which in turn would raise PH, but if your water is already oxygenated to a good degree then it might not do much since the gas exchange happens because of surface agitation, so if there's already an ample amount of surface agitation it might not do much. In short without all my rambling, I personally find it highly unlikely that it could raise your PH too fast unless you have an extremely low PH for saltwater. I'm also relatively new to the saltwater part of the hobby so you might have someone fact check me, but yeah. If it doesn't do anything and you think that it's still not good enough of a PH maybe try a water change or look for another problem assuming the PH is low. If you think it's a problem stemming from the gases in the water such as not enough oxygen, try maybe growing some plants around the room where your fish tank is and they'll create more oxygen out of the CO2 in the air, plus you get fresher air and a few nice plants to look at. Like I said though definitely have someone fact check me first, I could be wrong.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is no chance aeration will raise pH too fast. It might not raise it at all. Why do you think aeration alone will raise pH?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From my understanding of water chemistry and the effects of an air stone on PH, If you have a low amount of oxygen in your water and a high amount of CO2 I think it was then the air stone will make the ph rise,

, I could be wrong.

Wrong about the O2 comments. pH is independent of O2, and CO2/O2 do not necessarily move in opposite directions. Reef tanks can have both high, both low, or one up and one down. Thus aeration can move both O2 and CO2 in the same or opposite directions.

 

[Bored_shrimp]

There is no chance aeration will raise pH too fast. It might not raise it at all. Why do you think aeration alone will raise pH?

Depending on the various gases in the water some can affect the PH of the water and if one is in too high of a concentration it can lower PH, and by increasing gas exchange and getting the correct amount of dissolved gases and all can bump the PH up. That's at least my understanding from reading an article off here a while back when I didn't have an account.

Wrong about the O2 comments. pH is independent of O2, and CO2/O2 do not necessarily move in opposite directions. Reef tanks can have both high, both low, or one up and one down. Thus aeration can move both O2 and CO2 in the same or opposite directions.

Well thanks for correcting me. Now I know and can do better next time. I just thought this because of an article I read, I might have misinterpreted it or remembered it wrong since it was a while ago. Also whenever I set up a new tank I have to let it run for awhile to get the PH up, so I figured it was just that, and again I misinterpreted it in some way then. Thanks for correcting me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Depending on the various gases in the water some can affect the PH of the water and if one is in too high of a concentration it can lower PH, and by increasing gas exchange and getting the correct amount of dissolved gases and all can bump the PH up. That's at least my understanding from reading an article off here a while back when I didn't have an account.

I fully understand the reasons for aeration. The article may have been one of mine.

I was asking the OP why he thought aeration alone would help. Most often, it doesn't because the home air has excess CO2 in it, and more aeration may actually drive the pH down.

Most often, folks find that you need to aerate with low CO2 air to help, using outside air, opening windows, or using a CO2 scrubber.

I discuss my aeration test here which helps distinguiish home air levels vs outside:


pH And The Reef Aquarium
http://www.reefedition.com/ph-and-the-reef-aquarium/

from it:


The Aeration Test

Some of the possible causes of low pH listed above require an effort to diagnose. Problems 3 and 4 are quite common, and here is a way to distinguish them. Remove a cup of tank water and measure its pH. Then aerate it for an hour with an airstone using outside air. Its pH should rise if it is unusually low for the measured alkalinity (Figure 2). Then repeat the same experiment on a new cup of water using inside air. If its pH also rises, then the aquarium’s pH will rise simply with more aeration because it is only the aquarium that contains excess carbon dioxide. If the pH does not rise in the cup (or rises very little) when aerating with indoor air, then that air likely contains excess CO2, and more aeration with that same air will not solve the low pH problem (although aeration with fresher air should). Be careful implementing this test if the outside aeration test results in a large temperature change (more than 5°C or 10°F), because such changes alone impact pH measurements

 

[BlennyTime]

Just out of curiosity, why are you trying to raise pH directly instead of buffering alkalinity?

 

[sam2110]

Depending on the various gases in the water some can affect the PH of the water and if one is in too high of a concentration it can lower PH, and by increasing gas exchange and getting the correct amount of dissolved gases and all can bump the PH up. That's at least my understanding from reading an article off here a while back when I didn't have an account.


Well thanks for correcting me. Now I know and can do better next time. I just thought this because of an article I read, I might have misinterpreted it or remembered it wrong since it was a while ago. Also whenever I set up a new tank I have to let it run for awhile to get the PH up, so I figured it was just that, and again I misinterpreted it in some way then. Thanks for correcting me.

With my planted tank more C02 I inject the lower the PH... the seneye picks this up every time! I know that if you run an air stone and have high C02 levels in the room you can actually drop the PH slightly.

So my question is why would it be any different in a reef tank? I know people with reef tanks that actually draw air from outside to help keep their PH stable. I've seen the proof.... less C02 slightly higher PH

 

[Bored_shrimp]

So what I'm understanding from you Randy, is that it's directly the CO2 that affects the ph of the water and the less of a concentration of CO2 there is the higher the PH. So with the oxygen I was totally off like you said and it doesn't do anything except dilute the CO2 and provide the needed oxygen to the livestock, but with the less CO2 and not having as much of that in the water, the PH will be higher than in a tank with a much higher concentration of CO2 and the higher concentration of CO2 in the tank will lower the PH some. So I was kinda right with the less CO2 in the water will usually yield a higher PH assuming there's not something else in the water, but I was wrong about oxygen and that does noting to PH. I'm trying to understand this a bit better, please tell me if I have anything off or wrong. Then also aerating could lower PH due to the tank having less CO2 than the surrounding air, but if you have a stagnant tank where very little gas exchange happens so the CO2 builds up over time aerating it should raise the PH while also expelling the CO2 that is causing the PH change. That's all what I'm understanding so far, like I said though I'm still relatively new and learning so thanks for helping me learn.

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

I want to add an airstone to the back chamber of my AIO to raise my PH. The tank is only 10 gallons. Is it possible this will raise my PH too much or too fast?

why do u wanna raise ph that way
also what is ur kH (alkalinity) in ur tank rn
and do u have a skimmer
and how much gas exchange (surface agitation) on ur aqyatiun surface rn do? u have with power heads and return

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So what I'm understanding from you Randy, is that it's directly the CO2 that affects the ph of the water and the less of a concentration of CO2 there is the higher the PH. So with the oxygen I was totally off like you said and it doesn't do anything except dilute the CO2 and provide the needed oxygen to the livestock, but with the less CO2 and not having as much of that in the water, the PH will be higher than in a tank with a much higher concentration of CO2 and the higher concentration of CO2 in the tank will lower the PH some. So I was kinda right with the less CO2 in the water will usually yield a higher PH assuming there's not something else in the water, but I was wrong about oxygen and that does noting to PH. I'm trying to understand this a bit better, please tell me if I have anything off or wrong. Then also aerating could lower PH due to the tank having less CO2 than the surrounding air, but if you have a stagnant tank where very little gas exchange happens so the CO2 builds up over time aerating it should raise the PH while also expelling the CO2 that is causing the PH change. That's all what I'm understanding so far, like I said though I'm still relatively new and learning so thanks for helping me learn.

yes. That is all basically correct, except perhaps the O2 diluting the CO2. It doesn’t work that way in the water. The presence of any level or no level of O2 doesn’t really alter the amount of CO2 that will be in the water.

The article above covers many of these concepts.

 

[Bored_shrimp]

yes. That is all basically correct, except perhaps the O2 diluting the CO2. It doesn’t work that way in the water. The presence of any level or no level of O2 doesn’t really alter the amount of CO2 that will be in the water.

The article above covers many of these concepts.

Ok, thank you. I'll be sure to read it.

 

[Fakegolfnews]

There is no chance aeration will raise pH too fast. It might not raise it at all. Why do you think aeration alone will raise pH?

Everything ive ever read and been told says aeration of the water surface will raise PH, and I want to get my PH to 8.3- 8.5 its seems to be all the rage lately.

I have good water agitation in my little 10 gallon tank but the back camber of the all in one has no surface agitation. An air stone would aerate the whole back chamber. You dont think that will raise the PH at all?

 

[Fakegolfnews]

Just out of curiosity, why are you trying to raise pH directly instead of buffering alkalinity?

I dont dose anything, just water changes. Air stone seems like a simple addition that would help raise the PH to my desired #.

 

[Fakegolfnews]

why do u wanna raise ph that way
also what is ur kH (alkalinity) in ur tank rn
and do u have a skimmer
and how much gas exchange (surface agitation) on ur aqyatiun surface rn do? u have with power heads and return

because it is a simple solution. No idea what my alk is, dont test. No skimmer or powerhead but the entire surface is well agitated with just the return.

 

[GK3]

yes. That is all basically correct, except perhaps the O2 diluting the CO2. It doesn’t work that way in the water. The presence of any level or no level of O2 doesn’t really alter the amount of CO2 that will be in the water.

The article above covers many of these concepts.

I’ve never run across your posts on here but this is the second time today I’ve encountered you dropping chemistry knowledge, you seem to know your stuff.

I was reading through this and while I can’t quite find why exactly the OP is looking to raise pH in this manner, I disagree with your last statement that running O2 through the water will lower the CO2 or N2 in the water. I forget the name but there is a law or theory out there that points to solubility of CO2 vs. the other diatomic elements in our atmosphere. CO2 is far more soluable. However, this same law/theory shows that when you take normal atmospheric air and place it in contact with aquarium water, it will drive towards equilibrium which will pull O2 in and drive out N2 and CO2. This is also a similar method used in fishery systems but they use pure O2. There is also a similar method used and I’ve heard of them being called stripping towers, where they use normal air. Not sure if that’s the industry term though. But either way, if you force air that is empty of CO2 through water, it will help to drive out the CO2. They key is making it free of CO2. Maybe I just said what you did, but it seemed like you were saying the addition of O2 has no effect on CO2 and I don’t believe that be the case.

 

[GK3]

because it is a simple solution. No idea what my alk is, dont test. No skimmer or powerhead but the entire surface is well agitated with just the return.

You need to test ur Alk and calc before you chase pH. If these levels are low and you can buffer, it’s a much simpler way to get the pH up. It’ll also make your water much healthier for inhabitants.

 

[|Tom the Bomb|]

because it is a simple solution. No idea what my alk is, dont test. No skimmer or powerhead but the entire surface is well agitated with just the return.

if ur entire surface is agitated gud then adding an air stone won't do much tbh it's not a simple solution just test alk once rn

 

[blasterman]

To add to Randy's superb as always advice:

Agitating the surface of your water with a power head is orders of magnitude superior than an airstone in terms of gas exchange.

Raising pH is really not a problem with salt water tank, even a drastic one. Any body that's had a kalk ATO snafu had learned this. Screws up your calcium and makes a snowy mess, but corals shrug it off. It's not good going the other way.

 

[Fakegolfnews]

You need to test ur Alk and calc before you chase pH. If these levels are low and you can buffer, it’s a much simpler way to get the pH up. It’ll also make your water much healthier for inhabitants.

if ur entire surface is agitated gud then adding an air stone won't do much tbh it's not a simple solution just test alk once rn

No, I dont NEED to test my alk and wont, I reject your demands. To me testing 4 things and adding chemicals is not more simple than experimenting with adding an air stone.


Let me be more clear. I run an extremely simple system. No ATO, no skimmer, no powerhead, no dosing anything, no testing, just large religious water changes and it works well for almost 2 years. I have had one mini crash in which nothing died because I experimented with not doing a water change for 2 months then did a big one (rookie mistake). I will not be dosing anything. I simply wanted to know if an air stone to my back chamber would raise my PH too much or too fast and thanks to Randy for answering that.

I will go against my philosophy and test my PH before adding the airs tone and after and report back when my tank crashes miserably because I didnt test my alk...

Now I understand why this board turns people off from the hobby. If I had a dollar for every first post in the hobby someone has made and their goal is a softy tank with some easy fish and 5 people tell them to test Alk,Calc,Mag,Phos,N03,N04,PH starting day one and every week I would be rich.