Immortal flukes in a fallow tank

[TheStripedHermit]

I am going mental now. Everything is fine in my display tank with Ph being 8.0, ammonia being 0 and the same can be said for nitrite, phosphates and nitrates.

Yet as soon as I added some tank water to quarantine, it only took a day for the chromis in quarantine to show signs of gill flukes as in spitting out most of the food and heavy breathing in the gills, yet is acting fine.

The only pieces of brine shrimp that it eats are the very large ones that are probably soft yet spits out 95% of all other brine shrimp no matter size I mash it into.

This has even happened to me before when I left the tank fallow for 2½ months after my midas blenny died and put a clownfish in. That took about a month to die as in the end it was scratching itself on the rocks violently and kept spitting out food before not eating at all.

Just what the heck is this immortal strain of gill flukes I have?!?! Not even prazipro made a dent in it at all and I'm actually thinking of having to start all over again as an invert only tank would be too bland.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am going mental now. Everything is fine in my display tank with Ph being 8.0, ammonia being 0 and the same can be said for nitrite, phosphates and nitrates.

Yet as soon as I added some tank water to quarantine, it only took a day for the chromis in quarantine to show signs of gill flukes as in spitting out most of the food and heavy breathing in the gills, yet is acting fine.

The only pieces of brine shrimp that it eats are the very large ones that are probably soft yet spits out 95% of all other brine shrimp no matter size I mash it into.

This has even happened to me before when I left the tank fallow for 2½ months after my midas blenny died and put a clownfish in. That took about a month to die as in the end it was scratching itself on the rocks violently and kept spitting out food before not eating at all.

Just what the heck is this immortal strain of gill flukes I have?!?! Not even prazipro made a dent in it at all and I'm actually thinking of having to start all over again as an invert only tank would be too bland.

That is too fast of a time frame for it to have been flukes. It could be a protozoan issue, or just coincidence.

Fluke infestations start off slowly, and many fish do not develop clear symptoms for weeks after the original exposure.

That said, breaking the life cycle of egg laying flukes can be a REAL challenge - Prazipro won't kill fluke eggs. You need to redose at just the right time (which cannot be determined!). You need to catch the life cycle right at the point where any eggs that have hatched out have attached to the fish, but before they can lay eggs themselves.

I've gone to using hyposalinity to control flukes - 35 days at a specific gravity of 1.012 works well. But even then, a few tanks developed brackish water flukes (coming in from a dealer who was holding brackish and marine fish together).


Jay

 

[TheStripedHermit]

That is too fast of a time frame for it to have been flukes. It could be a protozoan issue, or just coincidence.

Fluke infestations start off slowly, and many fish do not develop clear symptoms for weeks after the original exposure.

That said, breaking the life cycle of egg laying flukes can be a REAL challenge - Prazipro won't kill fluke eggs. You need to redose at just the right time (which cannot be determined!). You need to catch the life cycle right at the point where any eggs that have hatched out have attached to the fish, but before they can lay eggs themselves.

I've gone to using hyposalinity to control flukes - 35 days at a specific gravity of 1.012 works well. But even then, a few tanks developed brackish water flukes (coming in from a dealer who was holding brackish and marine fish together).


Jay

The problem is that the display tank has been fishless for 10 months with the only living things being inverts so by now the gill flikes shouod havee starved to death but they didn't. And last time I dosed in tank water was about the start of last week and since then it's gotten progressively worse.

Theres no signs either of this being ich as I don't see any white spots anywhere and they shoukd have been dead by now given the display is fishless.

Maybe it could be a coincidence but it doesn't seem likely to me. Right now I'm going to test for flukes so I will tell you if I see any or not, fingers crossed!

 

[Flameback Pair]

@Jay Hemdal as a preventative measure would giving every fish a fresh water dip before releasing into the display ensure that no flukes or fluke eggs would enter the tank? Given that invertebrate additions wouldn’t add parasites just for this example?

 

[TheStripedHermit]

That is too fast of a time frame for it to have been flukes. It could be a protozoan issue, or just coincidence.

Fluke infestations start off slowly, and many fish do not develop clear symptoms for weeks after the original exposure.

That said, breaking the life cycle of egg laying flukes can be a REAL challenge - Prazipro won't kill fluke eggs. You need to redose at just the right time (which cannot be determined!). You need to catch the life cycle right at the point where any eggs that have hatched out have attached to the fish, but before they can lay eggs themselves.

I've gone to using hyposalinity to control flukes - 35 days at a specific gravity of 1.012 works well. But even then, a few tanks developed brackish water flukes (coming in from a dealer who was holding brackish and marine fish together).


Jay

Right I just finished giving my chromis a 5 freshwater minute dip and I don't think anything came off it as when I looked at the bottom of the jug I saw nothing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Right I just finished giving my chromis a 5 freshwater minute dip and I don't think anything came off it as when I looked at the bottom of the jug I saw nothing.

Only one genus of fluke (Neobenedenia) is readily seen with the naked eye after dips (they look like gray fish scales).
Other monogeneans - skin and more often gill flukes, cannot be easily see without a microscope.
However, if the fish improve a few days after the dip, then you can use that as an indication that flukes WERE present. Dips won't cure the fish, but then, you can decide if you want to try praziquantel or hyposalinity for a full treatment.

Jay

 

[LuizW13]

Can you just keep dozing prazi continuously in a QT in an attempt to catch the flukes after they hatched?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

No - while prazi is well-tolerated by fish, it does have some issue with toxicity. Continuous dosing is something I've never tried, but I suspect it could prove problematic over time. In addition, bacteria populations develop that consume prazi as a food source. They grow to the point where they eat the prazi as fast as you can add it....and you have no way to know if it is happening, or if it is, to what extent.

The best strategy seems to be to dose prazi at an interval that kills the flukes when they mature, but before they can reproduce again. The exact timing of this is unknown (to me anyway) but it seems to be around 10 days. Two to three treatments, 10 days apart, with a 30% water change prior to each treatment seems to be the best course of action.

Jay

 

[LuizW13]

No - while prazi is well-tolerated by fish, it does have some issue with toxicity. Continuous dosing is something I've never tried, but I suspect it could prove problematic over time. In addition, bacteria populations develop that consume prazi as a food source. They grow to the point where they eat the prazi as fast as you can add it....and you have no way to know if it is happening, or if it is, to what extent.

The best strategy seems to be to dose prazi at an interval that kills the flukes when they mature, but before they can reproduce again. The exact timing of this is unknown (to me anyway) but it seems to be around 10 days. Two to three treatments, 10 days apart, with a 30% water change prior to each treatment seems to be the best course of action.

Jay

Yeah, that's what I mean; couple of rounds of prazi, then water change, then wait a handful of days and do it again.

 

[TheStripedHermit]

Only one genus of fluke (Neobenedenia) is readily seen with the naked eye after dips (they look like gray fish scales).
Other monogeneans - skin and more often gill flukes, cannot be easily see without a microscope.
However, if the fish improve a few days after the dip, then you can use that as an indication that flukes WERE present. Dips won't cure the fish, but then, you can decide if you want to try praziquantel or hyposalinity for a full treatment.

Jay

I never knew that, thank you for telling me and I did dose prazipro into quarantine yesterday but there doesn't seem to be any improvement at all and even after the freshwater dip. Currently the chromis is severely hungry as it darted very quickly to the pipet but was unable to swallow pretty much anything, even 99% of all the tiniest pieces.

However what you said about fish getting better after a few days of a freshwater dip I hope is true, same with the praziquantel.

 

[Flameback Pair]

@TheStripedHermit @Jay Hemdal I erroneously called a freshwater bath a dip. From a video I thought I saw in this sub forum, bathing a reef fish for 5 minutes in freshwater makes mouth and gill flukes drop off. Is this correct? What is the correct procedure? I couldn’t find the article. Does this treatment work for other parasites and how stressful it this treatment for reef fishes?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm sorry - it looks like three different people are asking questions in this thread, and I'm starting to lose track!

Baths are longer term, dips are shorter term. A bath might range from 1 to 24 hours, while a dip is less than ten minutes typically.

Here is some information about freshwater dips:

“Freshwater dips” are commonly used to dislodge parasites from the skin of marine fishes. To perform these dips, the fish is captured and placed in a dimly lit container of clean freshwater the same temperature as the aquarium system it came from. Do not use reverse osmosis or deionized water, as there is no buffer capacity and the pH can drop too low. Dechlorinated tap water is suitable unless it is very acidic. The dip container should be covered with a clear material so that the fish is kept from jumping out, yet can still be observed for overt signs of stress. Hold the fish in the freshwater for five minutes to seven minutes. If acute stress is seen, the dip may need to be terminated early. The idea is to dislodge the parasites, without unduly harming the fish. Many aquarists opt to use reverse osmosis water, and adjust the pH to match the aquarium, but this is simply not necessary if the pH of the freshwater is between 7.5 and 8.5. Some advocate to not aerate the water during the dip, but this is incorrect. The water motion from air bubbles can help keep the fish active so that they can be better assessed for stress. Additionally, the air bubbles help dislodge some parasites during the dip process.



Some caveats:

• Some fish will give extreme reactions to being dipped (hepatus tangs for example), as long as they were swimming well before the dip, it is best to ignore that behavior and continue for a full five minutes.
• Moribund fish can be dipped, but understand that the acute stress from the dip may prove fatal. The dip water should still be checked for parasites in order to possibly help any remaining fish. Moribund would include any fish that was easy to capture or a fish with a respiration rate of 200+ BPM.
• Choose the type of net wisely, some fish have spines that will become caught in the netting. Have a pair of scissors handy to cut the net if this happens.
• Dropping a fish while moving it to and from the dip is common, take care. Some fish have venomous spines, so know that before trying to handle any fish.
• Fish shaking their heads violently after capture is one cause of mechanical exophthalmos (popeye), so try to gently restrain them in the net while moving them.

Jay