Herbie Syphon Question

[Forsaken77]

So I've decided to hard plumb my tank instead of vinyl, which I may use a 1.25" piece out of the return pumps to eliminate noise.

I have a reef ready 180, with a Trigger Sapphire 39 sump. This sump is cutting it close for backflow reasons alone. So I wanted to keep the main syphon pipe in the overflow as close as possible to the emergency so less water gets drained when the pumps are off.

What is the minimum difference to have between both pipes without affecting the syphon?

And how far below the weir should the emergency be?

Another quick question... Because I'm using 2 return pumps for redundancy, will I have a harder time getting the syphon dialed in? I have two Reef Octopus VarioS-6 pumps. Or would it be better to stick with the stock dursos with two pumps?

 

[Crabs McJones]

So I've decided to hard plumb my tank instead of vinyl, which I may use a 1.25" piece out of the return pumps to eliminate noise.

I have a reef ready 180, with a Trigger Sapphire 39 sump. This sump is cutting it close for backflow reasons alone. So I wanted to keep the main syphon pipe in the overflow as close as possible to the emergency so less water gets drained when the pumps are off.

What is the minimum difference to have between both pipes without affecting the syphon?

And how far below the weir should the emergency be?

Another quick question... Because I'm using 2 return pumps for redundancy, will I have a harder time getting the syphon dialed in? I have two Reef Octopus VarioS-6 pumps. Or would it be better to stick with the stock dursos with two pumps?

The emergency drain should be approximately 1/2 in below the overflow weir. And as far as distance between the main drain and the emergency I would say a minimum of 4 to 6 inches difference, if you don't have enough space between the two it'll take longer for the siphon to restart automatically and go back to being silent. Also make sure to use a gate valve on your main drain line

 

[madweazl]

The secondary of a Herbie should be where you want the water level in the overflow, there is no dedicated emergency line. The primary (stand pipe) only needs to be under enough water that it doesnt pull in air (this is the reason an elbow is often used).

Edit: the levels between the two drains doesnt need to be much different because it (secondary/emergency/whatever) cant pull in air and go full siphon while the secondary can (unless the water level is far enough above it to create a siphon condition).

 

[Crabs McJones]

The secondary of a Herbie should be where you want the water level in the overflow, there is no dedicated emergency line. The primary (stand pipe) only needs to be under enough water that it does pull in air (this is the reason an elbow is often used).

The herbie style overflow uses a primary and a secondary (which some call the emergency) drain. the secondary drain does set the water level in the overflow, correct, but it is considered an emergency in the event the main drain becomes restricted or clogged.

 

[Forsaken77]

The herbie style overflow uses a primary and a secondary (which some call the emergency) drain. the secondary drain does set the water level in the overflow, correct, but it is considered an emergency in the event the main drain becomes restricted or clogged.

I thought the gate valve sets the water height? So the secondary should always have a trickle going through it?

I was actually going to originally go with the stock Durso because it's easier, but with angled pipe, I can only imagine how much air will get trapped in there.

Also, my sump has inputs for (3) 1-inch drains. I was going to use 2 for the syphons from the dual overflows and T the secondary (emergencies) together for the third. That should be fine right?

What about using the 2 separate pumps? Because one will travel much further than the other. Will this make a stable siphon harder to achieve?

 

[Crabs McJones]

The gate valve does set the water level, but the height of your emergency pipe is where the water level will be at if that makes sense. I've always done the trickle method with my emergency drain, it isn't necessarily required. And as long as your two return pumps aren't rated for more than what your overflow can handle you should be ok. Just have to fine tune it.

 

[Forsaken77]

Got another question... I can't seem to find a schedule 40 Spears gate valve. BRS only carries schedule 80, which restricts the id more. Does Spears make a 40? Or does anyone know where I can get a grey schedule 40 one? I plan to use blue pvc pipe to go with the blue Trigger sump.

 

[madweazl]

There will always be a trickle of water through the secondary. What size plumbing are you using and how much flow are you anticipating. I'm not aware of a sch40 gate valve but they may exist. 1" plumbing will max out at about 1950gph with a realistic max of about 1575gph at 40".

 

[Clownfish2]

So I've decided to hard plumb my tank instead of vinyl, which I may use a 1.25" piece out of the return pumps to eliminate noise.

I have a reef ready 180, with a Trigger Sapphire 39 sump. This sump is cutting it close for backflow reasons alone. So I wanted to keep the main syphon pipe in the overflow as close as possible to the emergency so less water gets drained when the pumps are off.

What is the minimum difference to have between both pipes without affecting the syphon?

And how far below the weir should the emergency be?

Another quick question... Because I'm using 2 return pumps for redundancy, will I have a harder time getting the syphon dialed in? I have two Reef Octopus VarioS-6 pumps. Or would it be better to stick with the stock dursos with two pumps?

I have a Herbie as well as 2 return pumps on a Deep Blue Professional 110 gallon. The PVC that came with the tank was designed for Durso with 1 inch for the main and 3/4 for the return inside the overflow box. But I wanted a quiet drain and the redundancy of an emergency drain so I went with Herbie. I changed the PVC diameters to 1.25 for both the primary and emergency in the overflow box.

My emergency is 1/2 inch below the weir. My main drain/primary is 5.75 inches below my emergency drain. With the black strainer on top of my main drain in the photo, the difference is 4.5 inches. I use a Spears gate valve from BRS works wonderfully. I use the gate valve to set the overflow box water level right up to the top of the emergency drain.

I believe most of the gallons of water back flowing to the sump will come from a return line sitting too deep below the water surface in the main tank and or the volume of water lengthwise and width wise spanning the top of the tank that submerges the weir. The herbie main drain should be 4-6 inches below the emergency.

 

[Forsaken77]

There will always be a trickle of water through the secondary. What size plumbing are you using and how much flow are you anticipating. I'm not aware of a sch40 gate valve but they may exist. 1" plumbing will max out at about 1950gph with a realistic max of about 1575gph at 40".

The schedule 40 gate valves do exist, but they're no name brands. I just didn't want to limit the flow with a schedule 80.

I have four 1" bulkhead holes in the tank and was planning a 1" return off each pump over the back. The thing is that each return pump is also going through a high output 25 watt UV Sterilizer. So the head height will be more. I went with two RO VarioS-6 pumps. The UV's have hosetail barbs that go from a half inch to 1.25" or a 1" rigid pipe adapter. So I was going to use 1.25" silicone off the pumps to the 1.25" barb input on the UV's and have 1" pvc coming out of them. They always say you lose about a 1/4" for a barbed fitting, so I figure the 1.25" barb will be equivalent to a 1" pvc.

For the UV's to achieve what I want, a max of 700gph each (1,400 total) for a 180 tank.

I don't know if I should keep the standard durso as the emergency, because it's already pre-set for that tanks height, or use a straight 1" pipe.

And will putting the curved fitting over the syphon top make it so it can be slightly higher because water is pulling from the bottom side instead of the top?

 

[madweazl]

My SCA came with a short primary that would end up draining about 40% of the tank volume because the overflow has a weir at the top and the bottom. I'm running it all the way up toward the top of the overflow and using a pair of elbows (effectively 180°) to prevent it from sucking air. This will drastically limit how much water it will back siphon which is something I need.

As for your total flow, 1" plumbing should work fine but if you have four holes to work with in the overflows, you could run a modified beananimal.

 

[LoneStarReef]

I have a Herbie and my emergency pipe is just that...there for emergencies. It doesn’t have any trickle because I can’t stand the trickle noise. And if my primary drain were to malfunction I will know it because my emergency drain will start to make noise. Just my preferred way of doing it. My primary drain is probably 12” or so under the surface.

 

[Forsaken77]

My SCA came with a short primary that would end up draining about 40% of the tank volume because the overflow has a weir at the top and the bottom. I'm running it all the way up toward the top of the overflow and using a pair of elbows (effectively 180°) to prevent it from sucking air. This will drastically limit how much water it will back siphon which is something I need.

As for your total flow, 1" plumbing should work fine but if you have four holes to work with in the overflows, you could run a modified beananimal.

Yea, I don't wanna get to complicated with it. I've never even hard plumbed a tank before. Always used vinyl because it was easier and had less angles. But I definitely don't want gurgling from dual overflows.

So do you have a siphon and a secondary? If so, how much lower is the primary from the secondary with the U-connector on the primary?

 

[madweazl]

I dont have dual overflow boxes; regardless, the secondary/emergency channels with a trickle of flow shouldn't make any audible noise. In regard to the primary, it only has to be low enough to not draw in air. This might be 1/2", this may be three inches (it certainly isn't 4-6" unless you're running it straight up without elbows). This difference in height has zero bearing on how fast the system purges; my beananimal on the 75g have primary and secondary channels at the exact same height and the primary purges all air within seconds. Start with long lengths and trim them down to see how they react.

 

[Forsaken77]

I dont have dual overflow boxes; regardless, the secondary/emergency channels with a trickle of flow shouldn't make any audible noise. In regard to the primary, it only has to be low enough to not draw in air. This might be 1/2", this may be three inches (it certainly isn't 4-6" unless you're running it straight up without elbows). This difference in height has zero bearing on how fast the system purges; my beananimal on the 75g have primary and secondary channels at the exact same height and the primary purges all air within seconds. Start with long lengths and trim them down to see how they react.

On your U-connector on the primary, do you have a hole drilled on the top of it to purge air when you stop and restart the pump? Or do you just let the air get sucked down the syphon?

 

[madweazl]

Dont want any holes on the primary.

 

[ca1ore]

I think a lot of the 'confusion' stems from the many variations possible with setting up a herbie drain. Some people run them with a trickle down the open channel (secondary, backup, emergency .... all mean the same), others feel the need to keep them completely dry. Some have a siphon with nothing on the top, others use dual elbows or even a U tube (most ghost style overflows use a U tube because the external boxes are quite shallow). The choice really depends on how close the mouth of the siphon is to the water level to prevent a vortex. FWIW, I find it useful to have a small hole in the top of the siphon U in order to eliminate the possibility of it getting air locked. The difference in siphon flow between a schedule 40 and 80 gate valve is negligible; not worth worrying about frankly since 99% of herbie implementations constrain flow with the gate anyhow.