Help Infection fin and body on a clown - CentroPyge and Purple Tang

[PetitReef]

Hello everyone,

I need help to define cause and treatment for my fishes who seems to experience bacterial infection.

i try to take some videos, but not easy to make them pose


Centropyge was the first fish with something after i treated my tank with vodka for a dino issue

it started with a single white spot near his head on the right (so i thought ich : / ).
it stayed for more than week then disappeared. Unfortunately i saw his right fin starting rotting and then his back fin.
i am not sure it's ich at then end, but could be. i am treating water with ozone and Oxynator (peroxyde).

then I can see some fin rot on my purple tank right fin and at the base of his tail.

last one being my black clown fish on the left of his head

All fish are active and eating very well so for now I keep the water clean but should I take further actions and if so, what could be my options? knowing that i don't have the room for a QT tank and i have corals in my DT.
I am also living in europe, so cannot get product like Ruby rally pro. i did purchase Esha G Dex, but visibly need to be in QT tank https://eshalabs.com/esha-gdex/

I have a custom tank of 250L (75 gallons) + 60L Sump that have been running for more than a year, but moved apartment last november so got destabilised and set as insta tank (all corals and fish survived the moving on November first)

parameters are good, with zero phosphate (trying to up them with Plus-NP) and 3ppm nitrate on Nyos test or 10ppm with the ION director. KH at 7.9 this morning.
I have Automatic water change, 1% everyday with tropic marin pro salt and

Many thanks for your advice.

Petit Reef

 

[fishguy242]

#fishmedic

 

[Jay Hemdal]

First, I think you can rule out water quality issues.

I could not get a clear look at the patches on the tang, but the clownfish looks like excess mucus - that shows up more readily on that fish due to its contract with the dark coloration, the orange clown may have the same mucus, but is just not showing it as well.

Clownfish with "mucus" are often said that they have Brooklynella. I don't think that is the case here - having had the clowns for some time, the lack of other symptoms and the way the mucus looks (thin coating) all make me think it is not brook.

It was not clear to me - is the centropyge still alive? Is the fin getting worse?

Could the Centropyge and the purple tang be fighting?

Jay

 

[PetitReef]

Thank you Jay for your reply, I read i lot of your post in order to find someone with similar issue you would have answered already. (Btw very interesting article on peroxide)

My purple tang is a bit on the agressive side, but everyone manage to get away from him and most of time they are fine. but could be stress from agression indeed.

My centropyge is very much alive and grazing and swimming in the tank.
the right fin look shredded but still move it, his lips looks white and his body loss a bit of color.

here the best picture i could take of him

and another video of business as usual in the tank, level of aggression isn't too high.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you Jay for your reply, I read i lot of your post in order to find someone with similar issue you would have answered already. (Btw very interesting article on peroxide)

My purple tang is a bit on the agressive side, but everyone manage to get away from him and most of time they are fine. but could be stress from agression indeed.

My centropyge is very much alive and grazing and swimming in the tank.
the right fin look shredded but still move it, his lips looks white and his body loss a bit of color.

here the best picture i could take of him

and another video of business as usual in the tank, level of aggression isn't too high.

That certainly does look like mechanical damage on the flame angel's pectoral fin. the most common cause of that is tankmate aggression. Seeing that actually happen can be difficult. Fins can get ripped up much faster than they can heal. If you see a fin with perhaps 3 rips in it, that could have been from 3 attacks, weeks apart. The chance of ever seeing it happen are miniscule. I watch for chasing (that's a good sign that at least some of the chasing will end in contact). I also watch for fish that are steering clear of one another - that can indicate prior fighting. The final trick is to set up your phone to video the tank, then leave the room. Sometimes, fish won't fight while you are in the room.

Jay

 

[fishguy242]

Noticed that too, purple is hiding and watching you in video .

 

[PetitReef]

My Purple tang is definitely the boss of the tank and bully his tankmate who get away from him.

i can watch the tank from my dinner table and they act as ia m not there. purple tang clearly not impressed when i get to the tank as he's the first one to come forward . He is a bit of an *******, but i like him, he is the oldest in the tank.

will keep a close look on agression and if necessary put back the mirror to occupy him and give a break to the other fish to heal.

feel a bit reassured it's not an outbreak of something, for now.

 

[PetitReef]

Hello @Jay Hemdal and Reef2reef communty.

update on my centopyge, still not getting better and tonight coming back from work i can see that his right eyes is inflated with white over.

he is still eating and moving in the aquarium but his appearance is looking worse. could it still be agression? i dont see it being attacked that mush but could be my purple tang or my flame angle swiming away and hitting something.

if so i could try to catch him and put him in the refugium the time to heal.

I am still running ozone and peroxyde in order to keep the water clean. is there anything i can do without a QT tank and with corals in my DT?

thanks for advice,
Petit Reef

 

[PetitReef]

Edit, I added back the mirror against the glass, it worked well when i first introduced the flame angle a month ago.

my purple tang will spend his day fighting himself and leave everyone in peace hopefully.
funny enough, the flame angel also attacking his image, so they both attacking. at least it's not each other

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Edit, I added back the mirror against the glass, it worked well when i first introduced the flame angle a month ago.

my purple tang will spend his day fighting himself and leave everyone in peace hopefully.
funny enough, the flame angel also attacking his image, so they both attacking. at least it's not each other

Attacking the glass is an issue - can you cover that end of the tank outside with black paper, or try and change the lighting to reduce the reflections?

The flame sure looks like it is getting damaged, but sometimes, the damage happens and then a bacterial infection sets in that makes the issue get worse. Moving the angel poses the risk of additional damage. Is there any way you could put in a tank divider?

Jay

 

[PetitReef]

Attacking the glass is an issue - can you cover that end of the tank outside with black paper, or try and change the lighting to reduce the reflections?

The flame sure looks like it is getting damaged, but sometimes, the damage happens and then a bacterial infection sets in that makes the issue get worse. Moving the angel poses the risk of additional damage. Is there any way you could put in a tank divider?

Jay

Hello Jay and Fishguy

daily update on the progression.

the glass attack was due to the fact i added a mirror behind the glass. it went for about an hour and then everyone in the tank calm down. but it worked to distract my purple tang that i don't see chasing the flame anymore.

I also now make sure that nori is always on the clip, i use to do it once a week but now i make sure that the tang always have food (even if he is feed twice a day with veg flake and he is fat as a loukoum )

i forgot how much algae flame angels eat, he graze more than my tang (probably why he is not happy about it).

his eyes still inflated, but overall he is looking better. got most of his color back and the fins seems to be healing. his eye seems to be less swallen, but hard to tell.

overall still super active in the aquarium and eating well without fast breezing.

I also managed a small alcove under one of my rock where he can go if the tang would chase him (or when i come close to the aquaroum also)

I keep monitoring and hopefully it doesn't get infected.

i keep the water very clean, with oxydator and Ozone, ORP is at 320 and dip the food with TM Lipo-Garlic.

Other fishes are doing well also, my black clown still have this fine mucus around his head. and the few white spot on fins and base of the tail on my tang almost disappeared.

Many thanks again for the advises, because i was certain to have a bacterial or parasite infection in the tank and i would have act rashly without your prognostic and nuke the invert in my tank by using a product that would have not been necessary.

cheers,
Petit Reef

 

[PetitReef]

Hello @Jay Hemdal

Update regarding the fish, and unfortunately not really good news.
while things were getting better, over the weekend, my flame angle didn't improved much, got even a little worse

But my Black clown fish for who we thought it was mucus have his eyes covered with the similar haze as my flame angel. starting on his left eyes and now spreading to the right.

then my purple tang start to show a bit of haze on his right eyes

I don't notice any particular aggression and i am wondering if this is caused by a bacterial infection or fungal as it's spreading.
All fish are still eating well and active in the tank.

my wrasse, orange clown and file fish seems to be fine for now. but I am worry it would spread.
what do you think?

thanks,
Petit Reef.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello @Jay Hemdal

Update regarding the fish, and unfortunately not really good news.
while things were getting better, over the weekend, my flame angle didn't improved much, got even a little worse

But my Black clown fish for who we thought it was mucus have his eyes covered with the similar haze as my flame angel. starting on his left eyes and now spreading to the right.

then my purple tang start to show a bit of haze on his right eyes

I don't notice any particular aggression and i am wondering if this is caused by a bacterial infection or fungal as it's spreading.
All fish are still eating well and active in the tank.

my wrasse, orange clown and file fish seems to be fine for now. but I am worry it would spread.
what do you think?

thanks,
Petit Reef.

External fungal infections are very rare in marine fish. They generally look like gray eroded areas.

This is more likely a bacterial infection secondary to some injury. The treatment would be a broad spectrum, gram negative antibiotic dosed in the water of a treatment tank.

Jay

 

[PetitReef]

Thanks Jay,

could it be fluke? as symptom started when i saw a single white spot, size of a semoule grain on the flame angel. that fell off after a week.

if so, I could get Sera Tremazol in order to treat the tank as i don't have a QT and difficult to set one up in my appartment that could host my tang, flame and clown together

Petit Reef

 

[PetitReef]

It's while reading another post where you commented the following :
"When I see hazy eyes, combined with tattered fins, cloudy skin or a "disheveled" look, I will often think of Neobenedenia flukes.

A general white cast to the whole fish - could be mucus production due to some irritant, or a bacterial infection."

What’s the treatment for bacterial infections in reef tank?

Don't get confused with your pictures vs online pictures. The eyes should be pretty clear in person. In that case the foxface has cloudy eyes.

www.reef2reef.com

as the white case aren't on the entire body but localized to the head for clown and the right side for my flame, could it be fluke?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's while reading another post where you commented the following :
"When I see hazy eyes, combined with tattered fins, cloudy skin or a "disheveled" look, I will often think of Neobenedenia flukes.

A general white cast to the whole fish - could be mucus production due to some irritant, or a bacterial infection."

What’s the treatment for bacterial infections in reef tank?

Don't get confused with your pictures vs online pictures. The eyes should be pretty clear in person. In that case the foxface has cloudy eyes.

www.reef2reef.com

as the white case aren't on the entire body but localized to the head for clown and the right side for my flame, could it be fluke?

With Neobenedenia flukes, both eyes will be cloudy, not just one. The fin tattering with that is minor, not major like on your flame angel.
Are you seeing any fish flashing against things? Scratching?

 

[PetitReef]

With Neobenedenia flukes, both eyes will be cloudy, not just one. The fin tattering with that is minor, not major like on your flame angel.
Are you seeing any fish flashing against things? Scratching?

Thanks Jay,

My black clown have both eyes cloudy, but it's the only one indeed.

the flame angel is scratching against rock, also lately i noticed , he put his head in one of the live rock crack and stay still for a few minute. was wondering if they might be something there that help him relieve, I know a crab is near by that crack.

i dont see the clown or the purple tang scratch.

i am looking to find antibiotic in europe and use bath treatment instead of QT. need to find a system to catch and put them in an acclimatation box to easily pick them up each day for their bath.

otherwise, i was able to find ruby rally in europe : https://www.marine-aquatics.eu/en/rally-treatment-for-elimination-of-parasites-960ml?ItemIdx=16
going to order it and give it a try.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay,

My black clown have both eyes cloudy, but it's the only one indeed.

the flame angel is scratching against rock, also lately i noticed , he put his head in one of the live rock crack and stay still for a few minute. was wondering if they might be something there that help him relieve, I know a crab is near by that crack.

i dont see the clown or the purple tang scratch.

i am looking to find antibiotic in europe and use bath treatment instead of QT. need to find a system to catch and put them in an acclimatation box to easily pick them up each day for their bath.

otherwise, i was able to find ruby rally in europe : https://www.marine-aquatics.eu/en/rally-treatment-for-elimination-of-parasites-960ml?ItemIdx=16
going to order it and give it a try.

Formalin works against flukes, but my understanding is that the amount of formalin in rally is well below the normal treatment level for flukes.
A product containing praziquantel would be better. Sorry, but my EU formulary list is at home, and I’m not, so I can’t tell you what brand has it.

 

[PetitReef]

Thank Jay,

I found Sera tremazol that contains praziquantel at 7,47g for 100ml.

i also have a new bottle of eSha GDEX : 66 mg Praziquantel per ml

many thanks again for your advices.
Petit Reef

 

[PetitReef]

Hello @Jay Hemdal

i continue the thread for the european community as I took an educated gamble with Esha Gdex in a reef tank

Last night coming from home, i found my black clown near the surface with trouble breathing.
in order to try to relieve him, I did a 5 min fresh water bath.

I didn't took picture unfortunatly, but in the fresh water i was able to see like white round capsule, the size of semoule grain falling off in the water. i couldn't see any worms or parasite with naked eyes.
look a bit like this picture i found online, but there were like only 10 and seems a bit bigger.

Once the fresh dip done, he went back to the bottom corner with the female clown fish and looked better.

after this, I prepared for the praziquantel protocol.
removed the peroxyde oxydator, cut the ozone timing. removed the carbon under the reefmat and took off the cup from my skimmer.

then I look to dose the Esha GDEX, with 66mg per ml concentration.
based on their instruction : https://www.eshalabs.eu/europe/products/esha-gdexsupregsup.pdf

for my 300L aquarium, I need 300 drops ( 100 drop = 3.2ml) or 9,8ml.
this correspond to a total concentration of pranziquel : 9,8 x 66 = 647mg or 2,15 mg/l. very close to your recommendation of 2,2mg/l I have read on the forum.

however, based on your recommendation this should be a single dose followed by a second one 8 days later while Esha recommend half dose for the following 2 next day.

So I am going to follow your protocol for prazipro and leave it for three days and then put back skimmer cup and carbon (not sure if i can restart peroxyde and ozone also)

Once i drop the 10ml, lot of microbubbles was produced by my skimmer. fish got agitated, especially my purple tang and flame angel even my file fish was. but calmed down after an hour or so after dosing as it was close to light off.

now the question, is it reef safe?

Impact on my corals and invert in my reef tank after more than 12 hours
- Acropora -> No impact, polype still extended
- Stylophora -> all polype closed right after dosing, was the most impressive reaction after the fish and got me worried. however after the night, polyps were back to normal this morning.
- Euphylia torch-> retracted slowly after dosing, but hard to know if its the medication or because the night was coming as they often close before light off.
- Anemone -> no reaction
- Snails -> no reaction
- Feather duster-> still filtering in the morning.

so far so good for this first dose and 12h we keep update as Esha doesn't take responsability on this question and we cannot get prazipro in europe.

as for my fish after 12h.

Black Clown, my weaker fish. still in the back corner, staying vertically and breathing fast. found less white but as jay suggested there is probably a secondary bacterial infection going on and need antibiotic that I am trying to get (need doctor prescription for it here).
he did went for the food at lunch and was eating, so it make me hopeful.

Purple tang's eye seems better

Flame angel still looking rough but i can see improvement. still eating and actve. I don't notice heavy breathing like the clownfish

I read on the forum that wrasse can be impacted by praziquantel.
i can report that my yellow cory wrasse is fine and don't seems to be impacted.

It scratch the sand when i dosed, but as it was close to light off, it often do that before sleeping in sand so i am not sure it's related.

to be continued, hopefull my black clown fish will get better.
possible next step, i found this medication in my cabinet with ciprofloxacine, but i don't have enough to treat my entire tank.

would a antibiotic bath works on my clown fish and possibly flame angel?
if so, what would be the protocol?

many thanks again for your time and help and i hope it will be helpful for other reefer.

cheers,
Petit Reef