Heartbroken.

[RobberyinCSharp1824]

I am so upset right now. I've had a beautiful Yellow Tang in my QT for the last month or so while my 120 finishes cycling. The tang was swimming, had no signs of illness, ate regularly up until today. I just found him lifeless on the bottom of my QT.

I started Copper treatment (Cuprion) on Friday.
I wasn't sure, but had a suspicion that at some point early on into introducing my tang, I had used a few drops of prime in the tank. I had done a few 20% water changes since, but I know Prime makes Cu+ 10x as toxic. So to be absolutely certain there was none in the tank, I removed the HOB filter, drained the tank, and then wiped down the tank, thermometer, and powerhead prior to introducing him. I never returned the filter to the tank. After everything was wiped down, I did a 100% water change once so nitrates and prime wouldn't be a concern for the next 2 weeks (drip acclimated prior to re-introduction to the tank).

I had read online that, on rare occasions, Yellow Tangs have had difficulty with Cu+. Because of this, I titrated just enough to get the level to 0.20ppm and sat at my tank for about 20min to make sure I saw no adverse reactions. Everything went smoothly. I checked in periodically throughout the day - no issues. The next day, I brought the Cu+ levels up to 1ppm. Supervised the tang throughout the day - no issues.

On one of the pinned intro to quarantine forums here on R2R, I read that it's now recommended to do 2.0ppm Cu+ dosing, as some strains of ich were resistant to the old dosing level. So, I brought the dosing level up to 2.0ppm yesterday morning and watched the tang - no issues. Took a quick look at him last night before bed - no issues.

Now he's dead.

Maybe 2.0ppm was too much? I don't know. Maybe wiping the tank and equipment down was insufficient? I didn't provide a direct supply for oxygen either. If anyone knows why this might have happened and how I can avoid this in the future, I'd really appreciate it. I'm so upset this happened.

 

[SteveEreef]

So sorry to hear about your loss. I use copper power so I have no direct experience with cuprion but it looks like the therapeutic level is .20 ppm.

 

[RobberyinCSharp1824]

So sorry to hear about your loss. I use copper power so I have no direct experience with cuprion but it looks like the therapeutic level is .20 ppm.

Thank you, I appreciate it.
I found the article that stated 2.0ppm, but perhaps Cuprion (ionic copper) is a totally different dosing protocol?

My Current QT Process

UPDATE, 10/9/22: For those looking for quarantine information, our current process is kept updated on the first page of this thread (post any questions at the end of the thread). https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/current-quarantine-protocol.825055/ Thanks, Jay Hemdal I am frequently...

www.reef2reef.com

Can you send me the link to where you found the 0.2ppm therapeutic level? I'd be really interested to read up on it.

 

[ca1ore]

After a month, curious why with no sign of illness you decided to use copper? Doubt there was much residual prime left. I don’t use copper so cannot say whether your dosage was excessive or not. I’m just not a fan of using meds prophylactically. I think you end up killing more than you avoid disease.

 

[saltyhog]

Cuprion is ionic copper not chelated copper. The 2.0 recommendation was specifically for chelated copper such as copper power. I'm not familiar with proper dosing with ionic copper because I only use Copper Power. However, I'm afraid from what I've read you may over dosed the level as much as 10 times the recommended dose. So sorry.

 

[saltyhog]

@HotRocks

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

had used a few drops of prime in the tank.

Prime will only stay in the system about 2 days then denature. If it was a couple weeks ago, it most likely wasn't the prime.

 

[phatduckk]

Different type of copper have a different therapeutic level. I know copper power and cupramine and quite different.

 

[RobberyinCSharp1824]

After a month, curious why with no sign of illness you decided to use copper? Doubt there was much residual prime left. I don’t use copper so cannot say whether your dosage was excessive or not. I’m just not a fan of using meds prophylactically. I think you end up killing more than you avoid disease.

I considered not using copper, but I wanted to be safe rather than sorry. I believe Ich survives 72 days without a host? I plan on putting some serious time and money into the 120gal, so I wanted to cover my bases. I did have that debate with myself, though, and thought practicing patience would be the better way. Sigh.

Different type of copper have a different therapeutic level. I know copper power and cupramine and quite different.

So sorry to hear about your loss. I use copper power so I have no direct experience with cuprion but it looks like the therapeutic level is .20 ppm.

Cuprion is ionic copper not chelated copper. The 2.0 recommendation was specifically for chelated copper such as copper power. I'm not familiar with proper dosing with ionic copper because I only use Copper Power. However, I'm afraid from what I've read you may over dosed the level as much as 10 times the recommended dose. So sorry.

Well, it sounds like the census has spoken.
What a lousy way to learn this lesson.
Thanks for the help, everyone.
If any of you have links on therapeutic dosing with ionic copper, please send them my way. Everywhere I had read said 2.0ppm and since I didn't find any articles differentiating the dosing difference (and somehow miraculously did NOT kill my clownfish when I dosed around 1.7ppm in a prior QT) I assumed they were the same. I was very, very wrong.

 

[SteveEreef]

Yes: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/formalin.290925/

The recommended therapeutic dosage for Cuprion is 0.20 ppm. However, that product can be very difficult to measure accurately using a hobbyist grade test kit. I recommend one of the "professional grade" test kits listed here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/

 

[saltyhog]

Here's the link for using the different copper products available. Unfortunately I remembered correctly. The therapeutic level for Cuprion is 0.2 which 1/10th the dose recommended for Copper Power. I'm afraid that was undoubtedly the cause of the demise of your tang.

Copper treatment

Copper treatment What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There is some anecdotal evidence that copper will suppress symptoms of Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum; however it is unlikely to completely eradicate either. How...

www.reef2reef.com

Do some reading on our fish disease forum and don't be afraid to ask questions. It can save a lot of grief, money and time!

 

[ca1ore]

I considered not using copper, but I wanted to be safe rather than sorry. I believe Ich survives 72 days without a host?

The general wisdom is that ich can survive without a host for 72 days, but in the presence of a host (like your tang) symptoms would present much faster. Ich can exist without symptoms of course, thus the argument for prophylaxis, but this would be unusual for a new, stressed fish. Lots of different way to manage QT. I personally prefer an extended observation rather than slamming a fish with a cocktail of meds. YMMV

 

[phatduckk]

If any of you have links on therapeutic dosing with ionic copper, please send them my way.

sorry buddy.

Personally I read everything I could find by @HotRocks and @Humblefish. When I say "everything" I mean hours and hours and hours of reading. At some point I read one of them mention the difference of therapeutic levels for Cupramine (0.5 I think) and Copper Power (~2.0).

That pretty much sold me on using Copper Power as having a wider margin of error sounds good.

I don't do my own QT (I buy pre-QT'd livestock) but, if I did start doing my own QT again, I'd copy one of those dudes' protocol including the exact products they use/recommend.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I'm so sorry for the loss. That's a tough blow