? for those who beat dinos with diatoms

[Keko21]

Started my diatom growth about 2 weeks ago to fight amphidinium dinos and my diatoms have taken off! There are only one or two patches on the sand where I can see the stringy dinos. The rest appear to have been smothered by the diatoms so I think I am on the right track.

From videos I have seen though, everyone seems to show regression of all growth on the sand, where as I seem to have diatoms (or possibly a different algae?) taking over the sand to the point I cant really differentiate whats under it.

Question 1: is once I cant see dinos growing, should i syphon the sand bed (and leave the glass alone for now) to see if any dinos grow back? When do I know they are really gone?

Question 2: also starting to see cyano on the rocks which I understand is typical. Should I use chemiclean now or wait?

 

[Steve2020]

Started my diatom growth about 2 weeks ago to fight amphidinium dinos and my diatoms have taken off! There are only one or two patches on the sand where I can see the stringy dinos. The rest appear to have been smothered by the diatoms so I think I am on the right track.

From videos I have seen though, everyone seems to show regression of all growth on the sand, where as I seem to have diatoms (or possibly a different algae?) taking over the sand to the point I cant really differentiate whats under it.

Question 1: is once I cant see dinos growing, should i syphon the sand bed (and leave the glass alone for now) to see if any dinos grow back? When do I know they are really gone?

Question 2: also starting to see cyano on the rocks which I understand is typical. Should I use chemiclean now or wait?

Do you have LCA or SCA? I had LCA and on the sand bed it looked more like Diatoms and is not stringy. I had to verify under a scope to tell the difference. They also disappear at night below the surface of the sand. I do not believe SCA is stringy but I may be wrong. Both LCA and SCA have a very low mucus content from what I have read.

 

[bvanfish]

I am in the same process. I am not cleaning the sand bed at all. May be right or wrong but I am on water change number 2 without seeing a huge resurgence. I am just going to pretty much keep dosing silicates and letting diatoms go for a long long while as they really dont hurt anything to really make sure the competition stays for as long as possible. I also have snails and conchs that are sucking up the diatoms pretty quick so in my (very limited noob) opinion I am just going to keep fighting them even knowing or not knowing I have them just to really make sure they are gone.

 

[Keko21]

Do you have LCA or SCA? I had LCA and on the sand bed it looked more like Diatoms and is not stringy. I had to verify under a scope to tell the difference. They also disappear at night below the surface of the sand. I do not believe SCA is stringy but I may be wrong. Both LCA and SCA have a very low mucus content from what I have read.

My scope isnt really powerful enough for me to tell if it's LCA or SCA, but as I understand it the treatment for both is the same. Just like you, mine would disappear into the sand bed at night, at first it was a light dusting like diatoms, and there are only a few ways I could tell the two apart :
1. The dinos clump up when disturbed, where as the diatoms just get blown away like dust.
2. Under the blue lights the dinos looked more red, where as the diatoms are a rusty brown.
3. If left undisturbed the dinos did get stringy and mucusy.
No growth of dinos on the rocks- just the sand bed.

I am in the same process. I am not cleaning the sand bed at all. May be right or wrong but I am on water change number 2 without seeing a huge resurgence. I am just going to pretty much keep dosing silicates and letting diatoms go for a long long while as they really dont hurt anything to really make sure the competition stays for as long as possible. I also have snails and conchs that are sucking up the diatoms pretty quick so in my (very limited noob) opinion I am just going to keep fighting them even knowing or not knowing I have them just to really make sure they are gone.

I did one water change a little while back because i was running low on calcium for my corals. The dinos came back with a vengeance!! My snails and CUC are totally uninterested in the stuff, or they cant keep up. I have astreas, ceriths, dwarf ceriths, nassarius, and hermits.

 

[bvanfish]

I would try a conch. not sure if hes eating the dino or diatoms but seems to be working. What else are you doing to fight them?

Here is what I have been doing and it seems to be working. again take it with a grain of salt. I know every single tank is vastly different.

my steps

temp 78.8
turn off all whites red and greens
Block all outside light from getting into the room your tank is in
Drop photo period to 8 hours
Reduce intensity of lights
Get 10 nitrate .1 phos or 20 and .2 of
Dose silicates (a lot) I was doing smaller bits daily and changed to large amounts 1x week (I mix it with rodi and then I use a long pipette and pipe it right to the sand where there’s any spots no pumps for 30 mins)
Dosing different types of live phyto 1-2x a day
Adding pods 1x every other week about
No water change for 5 weeks
No glass cleaning for 5 weeks
Only changed floss when it stopped running through
Dosing 1 cap of MB7 right at light on sometimes 2 caps

I did not blow off anything, use any chemicals, or mess with the sand bed at all!

 

[Keko21]

I would try a conch. not sure if hes eating the dino or diatoms but seems to be working. What else are you doing to fight them?

Here is what I have been doing and it seems to be working. again take it with a grain of salt. I know every single tank is vastly different.

my steps

temp 78.8
turn off all whites red and greens
Block all outside light from getting into the room your tank is in
Drop photo period to 8 hours
Reduce intensity of lights
Get 10 nitrate .1 phos or 20 and .2 of
Dose silicates (a lot) I was doing smaller bits daily and changed to large amounts 1x week (I mix it with rodi and then I use a long pipette and pipe it right to the sand where there’s any spots no pumps for 30 mins)
Dosing different types of live phyto 1-2x a day
Adding pods 1x every other week about
No water change for 5 weeks
No glass cleaning for 5 weeks
Only changed floss when it stopped running through
Dosing 1 cap of MB7 right at light on sometimes 2 caps

I did not blow off anything, use any chemicals, or mess with the sand bed at all!

Started with 3 day blackouts and Dr. Tims refresh and wasteaway- no effect
3 day black outs and h202- no effect
Now growing diatoms with spongexcel and a whole host of other stuff that seems to be working- but also getting cyano now.
Added 3 jars of pods the other day, as well as ocean magik.
MB7 two cap fulls- dont want to do too much more though cus my nitrates are still only at 3-5ppm. Phos .02-.03ppm
I resumed my regular light schedule as the diatoms are going to need light to grow as well (50% blue 15% white)
Just dosed chemiclean so we will see what that does!

 

[Keko21]

im no algae expert but i do t think these are diatoms

 

[Idech]

I can’t see your video. In my case (had two different strains, now back for a third time), I don’t syphon the sand bed, as it is a good idea to keep having some diatoms.

This way if the dinos come back, it won’t be hard to bring diatoms back and get rid of them. Mine tend to come back as soon as my nitrates go lower than 10 ppm.

 

[Steve2020]

im no algae expert but i do t think these are diatoms

Looks like a REALLY BAD CASE of cyano to me but I am also no expert. Deffinantly not diatoms IMO. How old is your tank? Are you dosing anything in the tank?

 

[Keko21]

Looks like a REALLY BAD CASE of cyano to me but I am also no expert. Deffinantly not diatoms IMO. How old is your tank? Are you dosing anything in the tank?

The tank is young. Finished cycling in August of last year. About a month ago my nitrates hit 0 and i started getting red slime. Under microscope looks like this:

Only in the sand bed and receded at night when lights went out. Thoughts were it was amphidinium dinos.

Since dosing Si I definitely have diatoms, but also the new brown slime shown in the video creating a matt on the sand. Also definitely some red cyano on the rocks now.

I dosed chemi-clean today so hopefully that will help the cyano and just leave the diatoms.

The only dosing i have done has been ocean magik and AB+. All other trace element just from water changes.

 

[Steve2020]

The tank is young. Finished cycling in August of last year. About a month ago my nitrates hit 0 and i started getting red slime. Under microscope looks like this:

Only in the sand bed and receded at night when lights went out. Thoughts were it was amphidinium dinos.

Since dosing Si I definitely have diatoms, but also the new brown slime shown in the video creating a matt on the sand. Also definitely some red cyano on the rocks now.

I dosed chemi-clean today so hopefully that will help the cyano and just leave the diatoms.

The only dosing i have done has been ocean magik and AB+. All other trace element just from water changes.

I would stop dosing AB+ if you haven't already. It has Amino Acids and will feed your cyano outbreak. It may not of caused the outbreak but it will feed the existing cyano. I am sure you are aware that zero nitrates and dosing Amino's can be a recipe for disaster! What type of corals do you presently have and what type of food are you feeding your fish?
A little off subject but I am curious on the total water volume of your tank and how often and % of your water changes prior to the outbreak? I am only asking because of your comment " All other trace element just from water changes". I am not trying to second guess you or anything like that but I may have some info for you when you get further down the road with your reef tank once you get the outbreak under control.
Sorry to see this mess your having to deal with.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Started my diatom growth about 2 weeks ago to fight amphidinium dinos and my diatoms have taken off! There are only one or two patches on the sand where I can see the stringy dinos. The rest appear to have been smothered by the diatoms so I think I am on the right track.

From videos I have seen though, everyone seems to show regression of all growth on the sand, where as I seem to have diatoms (or possibly a different algae?) taking over the sand to the point I cant really differentiate whats under it.

Question 1: is once I cant see dinos growing, should i syphon the sand bed (and leave the glass alone for now) to see if any dinos grow back? When do I know they are really gone?

Question 2: also starting to see cyano on the rocks which I understand is typical. Should I use chemiclean now or wait?

Cyano and diatoms. Do this and you will address both - I assure you:
I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 5-7 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the week, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank beautifully clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

 

[Keko21]

I would stop dosing AB+ if you haven't already. It has Amino Acids and will feed your cyano outbreak. It may not of caused the outbreak but it will feed the existing cyano. I am sure you are aware that zero nitrates and dosing Amino's can be a recipe for disaster! What type of corals do you presently have and what type of food are you feeding your fish?
A little off subject but I am curious on the total water volume of your tank and how often and % of your water changes prior to the outbreak? I am only asking because of your comment " All other trace element just from water changes". I am not trying to second guess you or anything like that but I may have some info for you when you get further down the road with your reef tank once you get the outbreak under control.
Sorry to see this mess your having to deal with.

No worries bro I appreciate the help!

90 gal system- was doing 17% water changes every other week.

Corals are all LPS, softies and zoas (one hydnophora) only my hammer and toadstools are sizable, everything else is frags.

stopped the AB+ since the outbreak for sure.

Fish get frozen mysis in the AM and a frozen cube of meaty mix in the evening. Sometimes pellets at lunch if i can come home and the fox gets nori.
(Foxface, 3 firefish, 5 pjs, leopard wrasse, lagoon shrimp goby, target mandarin, two cleaner shrimp, a pistol shrimp, and my CUC)

 

[Keko21]

Cyano and diatoms. Do this and you will address both - I assure you:
I recommend to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 5-7 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the week, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank beautifully clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

Yea but i dont want the diatoms gone quite yet as they are suppressing the dinos. Unless you think i never had the dinos. See microscope pic above. Attached here is what they looked like when all of this started (before the diatoms and cyano).

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yea but i dont want the diatoms gone quite yet as they are suppressing the dinos. Unless you think i never had the dinos. See microscope pic above. Attached here is what they looked like when all of this started (before the diatoms and cyano).

Im on a large screen now instead of phone . The pink color threw me off but seems more like coolia which is a form of dino- Go this route:
When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and tank is already doomed.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX
You can fish fish as normal and if blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

 

[Steve2020]

No worries bro I appreciate the help!

90 gal system- was doing 17% water changes every other week.

Corals are all LPS, softies and zoas (one hydnophora) only my hammer and toadstools are sizable, everything else is frags.

stopped the AB+ since the outbreak for sure.

Fish get frozen mysis in the AM and a frozen cube of meaty mix in the evening. Sometimes pellets at lunch if i can come home and the fox gets nori.
(Foxface, 3 firefish, 5 pjs, leopard wrasse, lagoon shrimp goby, target mandarin, two cleaner shrimp, a pistol shrimp, and my CUC)

That's a nice selection of fish for your size tank. An 8-9" Foxface may be a little big for the tank in the future when he grows up.
Mysis is high in Amino's and other good stuff. Not sure what meaty mix your using but IMO I do not see a reason to use AB+ or any other product that has Amino's if the food you feed has Amino's IMO. A reputable reefer on this site told me when I described the food I feed that dosing Acropower which is a Amino of some sort, was not necessary and probably was one of the factors in my dino outbreak I had a while back.
I am sure you are aware that water changes DO NOT replenish Major, Minor and Trace Elements back to the values of a freshly made batch of saltwater you make. It is mathematically not possible unless you do a 100% water change which I have never heard of anybody doing 100% water change on a regular basis. I am not saying your elements will be out of ICP test range with your water change routine but over time they may. Just food for thought.

 

[Keko21]

That's a nice selection of fish for your size tank. An 8-9" Foxface may be a little big for the tank in the future when he grows up.
Mysis is high in Amino's and other good stuff. Not sure what meaty mix your using but IMO I do not see a reason to use AB+ or any other product that has Amino's if the food you feed has Amino's IMO. A reputable reefer on this site told me when I described the food I feed that dosing Acropower which is a Amino of some sort, was not necessary and probably was one of the factors in my dino outbreak I had a while back.
I am sure you are aware that water changes DO NOT replenish Major, Minor and Trace Elements back to the values of a freshly made batch of saltwater you make. It is mathematically not possible unless you do a 100% water change which I have never heard of anybody doing 100% water change on a regular basis. I am not saying your elements will be out of ICP test range with your water change routine but over time they may. Just food for thought.

Good advice thanks! (He’s a one spot fox so prob not gonna hit that size, but if he does i have a bigger tank in our office i can rehome him to)

 

[Keko21]

Im on a large screen now instead of phone . The pink color threw me off but seems more like coolia which is a form of dino- Go this route:
When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and tank is already doomed.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX
You can fish fish as normal and if blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

Unfortunately tried this with no good result. Lights off and 3 day blackout, with MB7 and H2O2 at the levels you recommended. Thats why i believe it to be amphidinium- it does not go into the water column at night but instead goes into the sand. So H2O2 is much less effective as are other water column based treatments that do work for other dinos. Thats why im trying the diatom bloom to outcompete them. Unfortunately it looks like there’s a lot more growing than i bargained for!!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Unfortunately tried this with no good result. Lights off and 3 day blackout, with MB7 and H2O2 at the levels you recommended. Thats why i believe it to be amphidinium- it does not go into the water column at night but instead goes into the sand. So H2O2 is much less effective as are other water column based treatments that do work for other dinos. Thats why im trying the diatom bloom to outcompete them. Unfortunately it looks like there’s a lot more growing than i bargained for!!

Blackout is 5-7 days. When you see zero readings, automatically its assumed this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and tank is already doomed.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive.

 

[RC_Reefer]

Unfortunately tried this with no good result. Lights off and 3 day blackout, with MB7 and H2O2 at the levels you recommended. Thats why i believe it to be amphidinium- it does not go into the water column at night but instead goes into the sand. So H2O2 is much less effective as are other water column based treatments that do work for other dinos. Thats why im trying the diatom bloom to outcompete them. Unfortunately it looks like there’s a lot more growing than i bargained for!!

Bringing this one back..
I'm in the same boat RN.
Essentially trying to figure when to WC..
Diatom bloom is in full force and Dinos are being overrun!
I have confirmed this through the microscope.
Diatoms are now on the rocks, corals and SB...
Still nervous to perform a WC..
But my gut tells me that the corals would like to have a WC soon since it's been over 2 months since the last one...