Fish resilience to Ich - QT or not to QT

[JD117]

So after what I thought was a fairly successful QT process for my fox face and dartfish. They've been in the display for about a week, eating well and pretty happy (still are). HOWEVER, about 2 days ago my primary heater stopped working and the temp dropped from 25 C TO 20 C by the time I noticed

It's only now, 2 days after the temp swing that the dartfish and royal gramma have got some white spots (mainly on their fins).

So either my QT failed, which is quite possible. Or the temp swing caused a stress event.

Either way, I'm now deciding whether to go fallow and use my old display tank for copper treatment (350L approx.) As I bought a slightly bigger DT recently. Or, to see how the fish manage ich as I'm worried that taking all the LR out to catch the fish will be super stressful (for me and the fish).

TL;DR: My main question is are any the current livestock at risk of being over overwhelmed by the ich:

X2 Clown fish
1 black spot foxface
1 silver bellied wrasse
1 Leapord peacock wrasse
1 Royal gramma
1 firesish /dartfish

I'm thinking of observing for a bit longer as copper treatment can be a killer. I'm also not running UV and would probably rather fallow than set up a UV system.

If you want any further info please let me know. I'm pretty new to R2R and would appreciate any advice. I won't lie - I've not have whitespot for about 5 years and been super happy with it, but seeing it now is heart breaking. It's an unforgiving hobby

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Just to clarify here, if you have ich in your tank, then there was some breach of biosecurity - it could be failed QT; it could have been added in on corals, inverts, macro, etc. (anything wet - this is rare, but it does happen); or if you didn't QT your previous fish, then it could have been in your tank this whole time just unseen because the fish were healthy enough to fend it off (this is seen occasionally with ich management - seemingly healthy fish with nothing added to the tank suddenly develop ich from nowhere after years of good health due to a stress event; the ich was there the whole time, just managed by the fishes' immune systems - see the second quote below).

You'll find a ton of different answers to this, but basically the question as I understand it is - should you try ich management or should you medicate your fish?

What you decide is up to you, but (from what I've seen) to do ich mangement properly requires keeping stress low and fish health high; if you can do that, then your fish will probably all be fine. If you can't, then you'll probably lose a few before medicating them:

It probably would add somewhat to the stress, yes, but generally speaking if a fish makes it through QT it’ll be fine being transferred to the DT (the only exceptions I can recall hearing about involved instances of established fish aggression against the new fish).

That said, there are basically three camps that I’ve seen with QT:

-Full, medicated QT (the timeframe for this can vary, but Jay Hemdal’s 2023 protocols suggests 64 days); this is likely the most stressful option, but the thought for this is basically that disease can’t wipe out your tank if it isn’t in your tank. Some people believe this weakens a fish’s immune system and may lead to them dying relatively young.

-Observational QT (I generally see this from reefers in places where it’s harder to get fish meds); this option is probably still stressful for the fish, but it seems to be more about avoiding particularly deadly diseases (such as velvet) or knowing in advance what you’re allowing into the tank. This method carries a lot of the same risks as no-QT (see below), but it can give a heads-up about issues new fish may have/introduce.

-No QT; this avoids the stress of being moved between tanks, but I feel like Paul B’s comment above is a pretty accurate description here. The thought here is that a healthy fish with a healthy immune system won’t die except from old age. Basically, this method can work if you’re able to provide good water, good food, and a good environment for the fish. Most newcomers to the hobby are probably not capable of that when they start, and when the fish isn’t healthy/is too stressed (such as because of inadequate water, food, or environment), them any diseases they’re carrying flare up and can take them out (hence why the disease forum here is full of no-QT tanks getting wiped out by diseases). This method does carry the risks that 1) a deadly disease like velvet may come in and wipe some or all of the fish in the tank out unexpectedly and 2) if a stressful event (such as a bacterial bloom, for example) happens unexpectedly, you may face a disease outbreak in the tank at the same time. Jay Hemdal has some posts about other potential weaknesses of this method here on R2R too, but these are the most important in my mind for most people to be aware of.

So, for most people a properly done, full, medicated QT is probably the safer route to go with when just starting out - honestly, this is why I’m personally a fan of pre-QT vendors, as they have a pretty good track record of delivering disease-free fish (meaning that sub-optimal care like the average newcomer is likely to unintentionally give the fish is less likely to kill it), and it’s hassle-free for the buyer.

Again, all of these methods when done properly can work, and they all have some pros and cons, but those are my two cents on the matter.

If you never quarantined, then ich has probably been in your tank for years.

From what I've seen with ich management on here, ich will basically remain managed and under control (seemingly nonexistent in the tank) as long the fish are in excellent health (and as long as the outbreak doesn't get too bad for the tank - not necessarily for the individual fish, but for the tank as a whole). As soon as a fish gets stressed/weakened, however, there will be an outbreak like you just had with your tang.

To say it another way, your tang isn't really cured, it's just healthy enough to hold the parasites at bay at the moment. Your other fish likely have ich too and are just asymptomatic at the moment like your tang. So, if something stresses/weakens them, you'll have another outbreak that seemingly appears from nowhere. To prevent another outbreak, you have to keep the fish in great health - low stress, good food (LRS and macroalgae are great; some of Hikari's stuff is really good too - like their Mega Marine line - but some of their other marine-oriented food options aren't as good from what I recall), good water quality, etc. are key.

This is why I typically suggest for people who are considering not quarantining to look at some of Paul B's ich management stuff, as he talks about good care being necessary for good fish health too. (This is also why I typically suggest that newcomers to the hobby buy pre-quarantined fish if they don't want to do a full, medicated QT - fish that don't have diseases/parasites should be a lot harder to accidentally kill, as they won't have a potentially lethal disease outbreak every time the aquarist makes a mistake while learning the ropes).

 

[JD117]

Just to clarify here, if you have ich in your tank, then there was some breach of biosecurity - it could be failed QT; it could have been added in on corals, inverts, macro, etc. (anything wet - this is rare, but it does happen); or if you didn't QT your previous fish, then it could have been in your tank this whole time just unseen because the fish were healthy enough to fend it off (this is seen occasionally with ich management - seemingly healthy fish with nothing added to the tank suddenly develop ich from nowhere after years of good health due to a stress event; the ich was there the whole time, just managed by the fishes' immune systems - see the second quote below).

You'll find a ton of different answers to this, but basically the question as I understand it is - should you try ich management or should you medicate your fish?

What you decide is up to you, but (from what I've seen) to do ich mangement properly requires keeping stress low and fish health high; if you can do that, then your fish will probably all be fine. If you can't, then you'll probably lose a few before medicating them:

Thank you for the response!

I'm reluctant to do ich management is I feel like it's a ticking time bomb as eventually something will go wrong (like my temp dropping)

That being said I'm a bit scared to pull all my fish out and put them in a 375l tank for 76 days as its quite a bit of livestock with no natural filter. I've only got 2 sponge pumps and a return pump from the sump into the main water column. So aeration, ammonia, nitrate etc. Seems dangerous as well

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Thank you for the response!

I'm reluctant to do ich management is I feel like it's a ticking time bomb as eventually something will go wrong (like my temp dropping)

That being said I'm a bit scared to pull all my fish out and put them in a 375l tank for 76 days as its quite a bit of livestock with no natural filter. I've only got 2 sponge pumps and a return pump from the sump into the main water column. So aeration, ammonia, nitrate etc. Seems dangerous as well

Yeah, it could be a bit tough to manage a proper treatment in those circumstances; if you decide to do the treatment, then there are a lot of experienced folks here who can help you out with that (like the forum's "fishmedic" crew, which includes Jay Hemdal).

For preventing future outbreaks using QT:

For future quarantines:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Biosecurity

A short introduction to aquarium biosecurity

www.reef2reef.com

For treatment of ich:

if you want to treat ich effectively, you need either copper medication (chelated copper like Coppersafe or Copper Power at 2.25-2.5ppm for 30 days after the last ich trophonts disappear is recommended) or hyposalinity (drop your salinity to 1.009 and keep the tank at that salinity for 30 days after the last signs/symptoms of the disease disappear)

 

[JD117]

Yeah, it could be a bit tough to manage a proper treatment in those circumstances; if you decide to do the treatment, then there are a lot of experienced folks here who can help you out with that (like the forum's "fishmedic" crew, which includes Jay Hemdal).

For preventing future outbreaks using QT:

For treatment of ich:

Thank you fir the links there. I'm currently observing the fish to see how they handle ich. There were no white spots on them yesterday, but the plan is if it gets worse, I've got all the equipment ready to pull them out and treat them.

What's the best way to reach out to the fish medic crew? Is it posting another thread on here? (I'm new so still learning how to navigate this place)

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

What's the best way to reach out to the fish medic crew? Is it posting another thread on here? (I'm new so still learning how to navigate this place)

Either by posting in the disease forum (linked below) or typing (without quotation marks) "#fishmedic" in a post - the hashtag (which shows up blue in a post when done properly) sends a notification to each of the fishmedics for the post it's used in.

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ca1ore]

So either my QT failed, which is quite possible. Or the temp swing caused a stress event.

Stress event can only trigger ich symptoms if ich was in your system so, yes, something slipped through. Fish absolutely can develop a resistance to inch. I managed it for many years; heck, may still be in my system. I do run a large UV for that reason.

 

[JD117]

Either by posting in the disease forum (linked below) or typing (without quotation marks) "#fishmedic" in a post - the hashtag (which shows up blue in a post when done properly) sends a notification to each of the fishmedics for the post it's used in.

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you for this!

 

[Doctorgori]

All of my tank have or had ich … of the fish you posted IME the royal grammas ALWAYS caught ich and always went first ( even before the tangs) ..
pardon the caps it was for emphasis and outta frustration… but yes; be advised

 

[JD117]

All of my tank have or had ich … of the fish you posted IME the royal grammas ALWAYS caught ich and always went first ( even before the tangs) ..
pardon the caps it was for emphasis and outta frustration… but yes; be advised

I agree - I had ich about 6 years ago when I first started and the RG was the first to fall the other fish from what I've read seem to be more 'resistant' but still risky

 

[kevgib67]

My tank got ich about 5 months into it. Fish: royal gramma, 2 clowns, sixline wrasse, yellow tail damsel and a diamond watchman goby. I threw the kitchen sink at it so I’m unable to determine what was helpful or what wasn’t. I installed a uv, used Polyplab medic, fed heavily soaking food in Selcon, Vitachem and garlic extreme. I still have all but one fish, about a year later my female clown went full on Rambo on the male. I was able to get him out but he didn’t make it. Just sharing my experience and this sounds terrible to me as I type this but probably would have set up a hospital tank with meds and the DT would have went fowler if I had expensive fish. Coming up on two years since ich, still have the uv running and I still soak the food but I don’t feed as heavy.

 

[threebuoys]

If you can, share some pictures and even a video to assist in diagnosis. When ich first begins, the number of spots will be only a few. Then, every couple of days or so they will disappear then reappear in different locations and in greater quantity.

 

[nereefpat]

I may have missed it. Any corals in the system? If not, hyposalinity in the display is pretty darn easy, and it seems to work.

If going fallow, 76 days isn't needed. 45-60, depending on temperature, is the new recommendation.

 

[JD117]

My tank got ich about 5 months into it. Fish: royal gramma, 2 clowns, sixline wrasse, yellow tail damsel and a diamond watchman goby. I threw the kitchen sink at it so I’m unable to determine what was helpful or what wasn’t. I installed a uv, used Polyplab medic, fed heavily soaking food in Selcon, Vitachem and garlic extreme. I still have all but one fish, about a year later my female clown went full on Rambo on the male. I was able to get him out but he didn’t make it. Just sharing my experience and this sounds terrible to me as I type this but probably would have set up a hospital tank with meds and the DT would have went fowler if I had expensive fish. Coming up on two years since ich, still have the uv running and I still soak the food but I don’t feed as heavy.

That's quite a positive outcome though. And it sounds like the fish loss wasn't even due to ich! What do you soak the food in?

 

[JD117]

If you can, share some pictures and even a video to assist in diagnosis. When ich first begins, the number of spots will be only a few. Then, every couple of days or so they will disappear then reappear in different locations and in greater quantity.

Will do! The first and only time I saw the white spot was about 4-5 days ago and I didn't take a photo stupidly.

But if / when it flares uo again I'll take a picture!

 

[JD117]

I may have missed it. Any corals in the system? If not, hyposalinity in the display is pretty darn easy, and it seems to work.

If going fallow, 76 days isn't needed. 45-60, depending on temperature, is the new recommendation.

Apologies! Yeah there's a few corals, inverts etc. So fallow is the only option I see. And okay that's good to know. I'd probably do the 60 to be on the safe side! Thank you

 

[kevgib67]

That's quite a positive outcome though. And it sounds like the fish loss wasn't even due to ich! What do you soak the food in?

Selcon, Vitachem and garlic extreme.