Dosing Potassium Nitrate

[CastAway]

Didn't want to hi-jack anybody's thread, so I'm starting another.

Hey @twilliard, I am contemplating dosing stump remover, and had some questions.

First of all, I have 210g total volume including a DSB measuring 2’x18”x6” as a part of a 25g refugium. I'm not convinced I'm nitrate limited, but, I'm not satisfied with my SPS growth or color.

My first question revolves around the DSB. I included a DSB in my system because in my relative ignorance I considered NO3 to be the enemy. I’ve had some conversations wherein the jest was that the overall reduction in NO3 by my DSB was minimal, or, more accurately disproportionate in terms of physical size:reduction. So, would it make more sense to remove the DSB and weigh the effect on NO3 before starting to dose potassium nitrate?

Beyond the unquantifiable reduction of nitrate by the DSB, I primarily wanted the benefits of micro fauna that the DSB would support, food, detrivore, etc.. Thus I’m reluctant with the idea of removing it, but it seems so counter intuitive in lieu of dosing nitrate.

I'm also battling a little red cyano problem. Should this negate the use of stump remover, or, to the contrary?

Thoughts? Anyone?

 

[Mark75]

Jeff,...if you decide to dose I wouldn't change anything in your current set-up that may confuse your results.

The nice thing about dosing is you are in total control of how much nitrate you add and how long you want to elevate nitrates, if you are not happy with the results you can just stop.

I say go for it! [emoji16]

 

[.AcroKiller.]

Didn't want to hi-jack anybody's thread, so I'm starting another.

Hey @twillard, I am contemplating dosing stump remover, and had some questions.

First of all, I have 210g total volume including a DSB measuring 2’x18”x6” as a part of a 25g refugium. I'm not convinced I'm nitrate limited, but, I'm not satisfied with my SPS growth or color.

My first question revolves around the DSB. I included a DSB in my system because in my relative ignorance I considered NO3 to be the enemy. I’ve had some conversations wherein the jest was that the overall reduction in NO3 by my DSB was minimal, or, more accurately disproportionate in terms of physical size:reduction. So, would it make more sense to remove the DSB and weigh the effect on NO3 before starting to dose potassium nitrate?

Beyond the unquantifiable reduction of nitrate by the DSB, I primarily wanted the benefits of micro fauna that the DSB would support, food, detrivore, etc.. Thus I’m reluctant with the idea of removing it, but it seems so counter intuitive in lieu of dosing nitrate.

I'm also battling a little red cyano problem. Should this negate the use of stump remover, or, to the contrary?

Thoughts? Anyone?

What test kit are you using

 

[CastAway]

I use Red Sea

 

[.AcroKiller.]

Do you have any algae in your tank?

 

[.AcroKiller.]

Never mind I see you posted above that you have Cyano. Yes Cyano will give you faulty readings on your test kit. You do have nitrates if Cyano is present. I would not add potassium nitrates If I was you.

 

[.AcroKiller.]

Imo sand beds lead to nutrient problems unless properly done with a plenum below or a diatom filter like Paul does.

So again IMO your tank has enough nitrates if you have a sand bed specially if Cyano is present.

 

[twilliard]

Ok lets put something to rest
Nitrates is not the soul source for these to exist.
Found here is a ton of information
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
Now when Mass organics and a carbon source exist then this bacteria will grow and multiply.
From there most of the energy needed is from light.
Read the article to more understand the life cycle.

You can absolutely dose no3 to reach your desired level without major impact on this bacteria.
Using an antibacterial with shorter photoperiod helps to de tangle the web and allows the skimmer to help aid in the removal.

 

[twilliard]

Now i have been dosing no3 since july
In my case of cyano, which I was lost as to why, came down to a massive snail dieoff last month. We are talking hundreds dead and was unnoticed (they were troucious snails I was breeding, about 1/8th inch)
That die off IMO is what started my cyano.

 

[CastAway]

I recently weened my tank off 6ml per day of vodka, suspecting that I was fueling the cyano. Abandoning the vodka. manual removal (vacuuming) and water change is all I've done to date to battle the cyano. It's holding on, much less, but there.

Perhaps revealing is the the cyano seems more concentrated in darker areas of the tank. As a guess, I think this may mean it's more nutrient driven as opposed to light. Not sure, as it could be reflective of reduced flow in those dark areas as well.

Scared to death of the Chemi-Clean route.

 

[BlueDevil]

Jeff- allow me to play devil's advocate for a second and think out aloud. And please don't take any offense to anything I'm saying. Have you tried doing away with all these 'additives' like vodka, vinegar, stump remover etc... and just letting the system function by itself for a good period to see what your PO4 and NO3 test out at? Also, possibly considering altering feeding habits? Having seen your system, and how robust it is, I don't see why it should not be able to sustain itself. If you still have PO4 and NO3, as I suspect you do with the fauna in your fuge doing as well as it is, rectifying that issue might take precedence over anything else.

I personally am not a huge fan of additives as I have found that often it just ends up in a death spiral of sorts where folks end up replacing one with another since the previous one didn't work out. I prefer the 'laissez faire' attitude and only do what the 'fish bowl' cannot mimic of the ocean (water changes, replacing trace elements, etc...)

As with anything in this hobby though, what fails for one person ends up being super successful for the other. So I just thought of stripping back to basics before you ventured into anything as serious as stump removers and the like.

Again, please don't take offense ... just my two cents worth

 

[CastAway]

No offence taken whatsoever. I need this.

The only thing I was dosing was vodka. I even quit dosing the Aqua-vitro fuel. Every now and then I dose a little Mg.

I really just wonder if I have too much N export, I mean between the DSB, Macro algae, Skimmer and GFO.
Like I said, I'm not even sure I'm NO3 limited. probably just over analyzing.

 

[BlueDevil]

What were your latest test readings, and how long back was that? Specifically NO3 and PO4? When you say you dose a little Mg every now and then, I assume you go with a dosing routine based on how much is consumed? As I'm getting into SPS myself, all I ever read is how the most critical thing for SPS is perfect water quality, and more importantly, stability. And it was only after I started getting into SPS that I religiously started testing weekly (at least for the key elements) and dosing weekly according to consumption. Only after I started testing weekly did I realize how much the levels really would have fluctuated without my testing and dosing.

I hope in your case it is simply a matter of getting NO3 and PO4 levels in line (if you have any that is though I suspect you do due to the cyano), and the improved quality and stability will lead to growth and color.

 

[Chriscrna]

I recently weened my tank off 6ml per day of vodka, suspecting that I was fueling the cyano. Abandoning the vodka. manual removal (vacuuming) and water change is all I've done to date to battle the cyano. It's holding on, much less, but there.

Perhaps revealing is the the cyano seems more concentrated in fathers areas of the tank. As s guess, I think this may mean it's more nutrient driven as opposed to light. Not sure, as it could be reflective of reduced flow in those areas as well.

Scared to death of the Chemi-Clean route.

Jeff, I used chemi clean once. Completely cleared up my cyano 100% within 2-3 days. Of course the chemi clean instructions state to use it once a month as part of your tank maintenance......I don't think so.......because who knows what it really does to our systems. But I used it 6 months ago, and as far as I can tell, I've not seen any residual negative effects. But then again, my acros might be twice their size by now if I hadn't used it.

 

[cee]

I've got somewhat similar problems on my end. Even though the nitrate is a bit low, I'm still not totally disappointed with my colors. Honestly, I don't put a lot of faith in the nitrate test kits we use in the hobby for the most part but it's all we've got. I'm actually more interested in relative numbers rather than absolute numbers as that tells me a bit more about how the tank is "hanging in there" long-term.

Dosing nitrates is the change which caused my cyano issues. Honestly, I have a hard time believing that calcium nitrate is that much different than potassium nitrate in term of the amount of nitrate added to the system (K and Ca are right next to one another on the periodic table and possess one positive charge in the ionic state). Actually, given what potassium is shown to do to montipora colors when low in a reef system, I'd be somewhat inclined to say that the potassium ion may have more to do with the color improvement than the nitrate (perhaps), but I'm not a biological chemist so I'm only speaking from knowledge I've gained from past forays in the hobby.

I've used ChemiClean in the past as well and feel it is safe. It is kinda messy in that the antibiotic kills the cyano and the skimmer extracts the dead red cells for a day or two causing you to have to constantly adjust and monitor your skimmer. However, this time I'm trying a different tact. The Zeovit product line, of which I've always been a big fan (except not a fan of their price), has a cyano clean product out. Their approach is to provide competing bacteria to the cyano in an attempt to starve it out. Since to me this seems more natural than adding an antibiotic I'm going to give it a shot. I'll report how it works but if I were in your shoes I'd withhold from dosing a nitrate source just yet.

Cyano can fix nitrogen and carbon both. Since it most often forms on sandbeds, where anaerobic bacteria are working diligently to reduce nitrate to nitrogen there clearly must be a relationship. The other thing that I've not pondered until recently is the role of sealing up our houses in the winter to trap the heat while at the same time trapping the carbon dioxide, another food source for these bacteria. Perhaps that is why hydrogen peroxide can temporarily help, not only by raising the oxidation reduction potential of the water but also providing readily available oxygen. I just wonder if drawing air into the skimmer from outside would be enough to counteract the growth of cyano.

Deep (chemistry) thoughts brought to you by Dave

 

[twilliard]

Dosing nitrates is the change which caused my cyano issues.

I will have to question this.
Dosing no3 has never caused any outbreaks that I am aware of.
These guys, cyano bacteria, thrives on carbons.
The article above explains it well.

 

[watchguy123]

Ok lets put something to rest
Nitrates is not the soul source for these to exist.
Found here is a ton of information
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
Now when Mass organics and a carbon source exist then this bacteria will grow and multiply.
From there most of the energy needed is from light.
Read the article to more understand the life cycle.

You can absolutely dose no3 to reach your desired level without major impact on this bacteria.
Using an antibacterial with shorter photoperiod helps to de tangle the web and allows the skimmer to help aid in the removal.

Because someone believes it to be so doesn't necessarily mean it is true.

There appears to be a complex relationship between various bacteria and alga within our reef tanks. Cyanobacteria have an interesting advantage to store nitrogen and utilize it when it is extremely low as an available nutrient in reef water. This is thought to be one of the reasons why it is often dominant and persistent at low nitrate levels.

I don't understand a couple of things stated: 1) what is Mass organics. 2) what is "an antibacterial" in terms of what you're referring to, 3) what has a shorter photoperiod in terms of what you are referring to 4) are you aware of anyone that dosed nitrates with cyano present and can validate the diminishing of the cyano as a result--I know it sounds like it might but I don't know if anyone has been successful with it.

Just curious, I don't believe I saw a nitrate level or phosphate level posted by the OP. One of the many things to be cautious with is to carefully know your nitrate and phosphate levels both before and during nitrate dosing. Also other things to consider is your bio load, the type of fish food, feeding amounts, filtration, lighting, flow, GAC, skimming, , carbon dosing or not, gfo or not, on and on. Not trying to make it sound more complicated than it needs to be but don't want to oversimplify either.

 

[cee]

I don't care to get in an argument but the article indicates nitrogen, carbon and sulfur may be used in the bacteria's metabolism:

"Many cyanobacteria are able to reduce nitrogen and carbon dioxide under aerobic conditions, a fact that may be responsible for their evolutionary and ecological success."
"Furthermore, they share an archaeal property, the ability to reduce elemental sulfur by anaerobic respiration in the dark."

I'm by no means an expert, just pointing out my observations. My limited foray in investigating cyanobacteria leads me to believe these are extremely complicated life forms that have evolved processes that are still being studied and the Wikipedia article doesn't do them justice. I'll have to consult with an individual who I have the utmost confidence in when it comes to biological processes on another forum, Boomer, assuming he is still around. I did, however, begin dosing Ca(NO3) at about the same time we closed the windows and doors and began heating the home.

 

[twilliard]

I don't care to get in an argument but the article indicates nitrogen, carbon and sulfur may be used in the bacteria's metabolism:

"Many cyanobacteria are able to reduce nitrogen and carbon dioxide under aerobic conditions, a fact that may be responsible for their evolutionary and ecological success."
"Furthermore, they share an archaeal property, the ability to reduce elemental sulfur by anaerobic respiration in the dark."

I'm by no means an expert, just pointing out my observations. My limited foray in investigating cyanobacteria leads me to believe these are extremely complicated life forms that have evolved processes that are still being studied and the Wikipedia article doesn't do them justice. I'll have to consult with an individual who I have the utmost confidence in when it comes to biological processes on another forum, Boomer, assuming he is still around. I did, however, begin dosing Ca(NO3) at about the same time we closed the windows and doors and began heating the home.

No argument here
I dont do that.
Old Boomer.. I remember him!

 

[cee]

The Wiki article also indicates the bicarbonates are a carbon source for the bacteria. This brings up a good point that it may be impossible, if not undesirable, to reduce carbon additions to the tank. I still think CO2 is playing a fairly important role but am unable to test that theory at the moment. Hence, I'll try bacteria that should out-compete the cyano and if that fails there are always antibiotics.