Do dinos consume nitrate?

[Robert Binz]

I know this could be posted several places but it's very much a reef-chemistry question.

My pico has a serious issue with nutrients in that it's really hard to maintain detectable numbers. Recently, I've had a Dino outbreak (they disappear largely at night). I've upped my nitrate and phosphate doing but the tank is using these nutrients at crazy rates. I can dose 10ppm nitrate and it'll be completely gone 40 hours later.

Just for my education I'm wondering if there's a consensus whether Dinos consume nitrate?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

They certainly need a source of nitrogen. It's hard to distinguish between them using nitrate or ammonia in a reef tank, but they will tend to keep nitrate low if they are growing.

 

[Dan_P]

I know this could be posted several places but it's very much a reef-chemistry question.

My pico has a serious issue with nutrients in that it's really hard to maintain detectable numbers. Recently, I've had a Dino outbreak (they disappear largely at night). I've upped my nitrate and phosphate doing but the tank is using these nutrients at crazy rates. I can dose 10ppm nitrate and it'll be completely gone 40 hours later.

Just for my education I'm wondering if there's a consensus whether Dinos consume nitrate?

I am wondering if you let everyone off the hook with your question. My two question for your situation would be “why the heck does my system rapidly consume dosed nitrate and phosphate“ and “why are dinoflagellates flourishing“.

As for dino growth, the current popular idea is that low nitrate and phosphate are a prelude/cause/are correlated with an impending dinoflagellate outbreak. Seen from this perspective, dinoflagellates are not consuming nitrates, but are somehow benefitting from the low level of nitrate and possibly phosphate.

Bottled bacteria manufacturers would have you believe adding their bacteria will result in a lower level of “X” in your system and an end to the dinoflagellate conflagration. The mystery ingredient “X” is usually referred to as grunge, slime, gunk, biofilm, generally “icky” things no one can measure, the bacteria in your system cannot digest and somehow causeS problems.

As for rapid nutrient depletion, rapid microorganism and coral growth might be the cause. If the system is new, phosphate depletion might also be a matter of adsorption by aragonite sand and rock. You could consider “rip cleaning” the system to take care of the dinoflagellates and punt on figuring out the rapid nutrient depletion question.

 

[Cory]

According to a lot of scientific articles, dinoflagellet blooms in the sea like red tide are accompanied by elevated nitrogen. In my tank nitrates are 100ppm and up and i cant get rid of dinos. I would expect with very low no3 and a little po4 dinos would dissapear but i havent proven it in my tank yet.

 

[Dan_P]

According to a lot of scientific articles, dinoflagellet blooms in the sea like red tide are accompanied by elevated nitrogen. In my tank nitrates are 100ppm and up and i cant get rid of dinos. I would expect with very low no3 and a little po4 dinos would dissapear but i havent proven it in my tank yet.

I have to wonder whether the hobby has the correct idea about the conditions necessary for dinoflagellate proliferation. And why only one set of conditions? I am currently thinking in tank measurements of XYZ are probably the starting point to a better understanding. I am struggling to come up with what XYZ are, though I tend to focus on what is happening on the surfaces where nuisance growth occurs rather than what is in the water.

 

[sixty_reefer]

According to a lot of scientific articles, dinoflagellet blooms in the sea like red tide are accompanied by elevated nitrogen. In my tank nitrates are 100ppm and up and i cant get rid of dinos. I would expect with very low no3 and a little po4 dinos would dissapear but i havent proven it in my tank yet.

What’s your po4?

 

[Robert Binz]

What’s your po4?

I keep PO4 around 1ppm. It's hard to know for sure because the Salifert test that I have is kinda hard to distinguish colors

I had 0 PO4 for a while and got hit with a bad chrytophyte outbreak but they evaporated in a matter of days with PO4 dosing

 

[Robert Binz]

On the more general matter of fighting Dinos, I just installed a UV sterilizer that I run at night to see if that will knock them back some

 

[Cory]

What’s your po4?

It varies usually i dose sodium phosphate about a capful which gets my tank to around .70 ppm po4. Then it declines over a week. I think ill install a large ats to combat my high no3 problem. Its just my tank is full of large fish. 8" and up size.

 

[Clownfishy]

I am coming to the end of a Dino outbreak and the best thing I did was raise my P04 to over 0.2ppm (sometimes hitting 0.3ppm) and measured it it daily using the Hanna low phosphate checker. I gave up using Salifert as it always registered zero on testing. So your phosphate may well be higher than you think.
I kept Nirates at 20-50ppm but as there are no easy to read Nitrate test kits, I am not confident in those numbers. All I can say is that they were a lot higher than they were during the peak of their Dino outbreak.
The other key turning point for me was adding 2 UV's!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would point out that the idea that dinos may be outcompeted at higher nutrient levels in a reef tank may not have an analogous situation in the open ocean. If the dinos in a reef tank lose out by depletion of a trace element, that may not happen in the ocean where the water volume is so much higher.

 

[Cory]

I am coming to the end of a Dino outbreak and the best thing I did was raise my P04 to over 0.2ppm (sometimes hitting 0.3ppm) and measured it it daily using the Hanna low phosphate checker. I gave up using Salifert as it always registered zero on testing. So your phosphate may well be higher than you think.
I kept Nirates at 20-50ppm but as there are no easy to read Nitrate test kits, I am not confident in those numbers. All I can say is that they were a lot higher than they were during the peak of their Dino outbreak.
The other key turning point for me was adding 2 UV's!

Ive been seeing a lot of success with uv and dinos. I just cant spend 400 dollars on one yet. This hobby drains the bank for any purchase.

 

[Robert Binz]

I am coming to the end of a Dino outbreak and the best thing I did was raise my P04 to over 0.2ppm (sometimes hitting 0.3ppm) and measured it it daily using the Hanna low phosphate checker. I gave up using Salifert as it always registered zero on testing. So your phosphate may well be higher than you think.
I kept Nirates at 20-50ppm but as there are no easy to read Nitrate test kits, I am not confident in those numbers. All I can say is that they were a lot higher than they were during the peak of their Dino outbreak.
The other key turning point for me was adding 2 UV's!

Thank you so much for that advice. Yeah like I said above I have a really hard time keeping nutrients so the dinos must’ve started when I wasn’t checking as often (studying for the bar exam)

I’m keeping my nutrients high now and added a massive in-tank UV.

I blacked out the tank today to starve the dinos for three days.

I’ve been turning the UV off for 12 hours each day and dosing Dr.Tim’s refresh at the start of the 12 hour window to give the refresh bacteria time to colonize on the rocks. Then I run the UV for the next 12 hours

 

[Backreefing]

My Dino’s are almost gone as clownfishy’s Aquarium. For me they quickly disappeared with doseing nitrates. Now I’m doseing phosphate. Through a ATO . But these nutrients disappear in as little as a day .
clownfishy what is your aquarium? Sps lps softies fowlr ? I ask because those are high nutrients for a sps tank .

 

[Clownfishy]

My Dino’s are almost gone as clownfishy’s Aquarium. For me they quickly disappeared with doseing nitrates. Now I’m doseing phosphate. Through a ATO . But these nutrients disappear in as little as a day .
clownfishy what is your aquarium? Sps lps softies fowlr ? I ask because those are high nutrients for a sps tank .

Mainly LPS and a couple of soft corals. I lost a lot of Montipora during the outbreak but even with the high nutrient levels it has come back strong and colouring up nicely. I was also dosing Bacter7 for well over a year and have only just stopped dosing it and noticing a further improvement. Also increasing the flow improved things so I assume it pushed the Dino's into the water column and the UV blasted them.

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

They certainly need a source of nitrogen. It's hard to distinguish between them using nitrate or ammonia in a reef tank, but they will tend to keep nitrate low if they are growing.

Yes to this. I had experienced this. A system nitrate crash 0.0. I was dosing and dosing and dosing neonitro with 0 increase.

Two days later the biggest explosion of Dino I’ve ever had. After doing research there is suggestion that Dino actually causes the 0.0 reading because they are growing and consuming large amounts before a huge outbreak. Not that the nutrients just got to 0 but that the Dino caused the 0 reading.

Now I’m treating the Dino x and the Dino is going and nitrate is 6.9 which I could barely get past 1 ppm dosinh neo nitro. I believe that the low nutrients don’t “cause” dino out breaks but rather the dino causes the 0 ppm because of consumption.

 

[CHSUB]

Old thread? However, no3 at 0.0 on a garbage hobby test kit, Salifert, Hanna or Other, should not be referred to as a “nitrate crash”. Determining N deficiency in a typical reef tank would require a laboratory, a room full of instruments, and a bunch of guys with coffee breath.

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

Old thread? However, no3 at 0.0 on a garbage hobby test kit, Salifert, Hanna or Other, should not be referred to as a “nitrate crash”. Determining N deficiency in a typical reef tank would require a laboratory, a room full of instruments, and a bunch of guys with coffee breath.

Hanna is very accurate. I disagree

 

[CHSUB]

Hanna is very accurate. I disagree

Listed 2 to 5% error margin, which is highly inaccurate.

 

[alexanderthefishlover]

Listed 2 to 5% error margin, which is highly inaccurate.

So what do you want general hobbyists to do? Pay for a lab to research their water weekly? Get over yourself. You’re the saltwater type that people can’t stand. Pretentious much.

Also, I’d assume the percents you listed are due to the powder reagents not fully going into the vial and therefore there is room for error when the correct pre-packaged amount isn’t dosed in full as it falls out the package