Discussion - Could it be possible to beat Dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria with…

[sixty_reefer]

Just creating a nutrient competition at the carbon level that should in a way reflect on the availability of all 3 nutrients to nuisance?

As it seems almost impossible to create a competitive environment for Nitrogen and Phosphorus alone I was thinking if a competition for organic carbon and inorganic carbon would have a greater impact on this nuisances. Being that most species can switch from inorganic to organic carbon in a environment that one becomes reduced.

My thoughts is that the implementation of large Refugium well illuminated and simple of the shelf products that stimulate bacteria growth could in a way create a balance environment that could outcompete nuisance with beneficial organisms.

In my mind the biggest issue would be the maintenance of simple nutrient like nitrate and phosphate as many would be against adding those in a bottle to keep the overall balance of the tank.

 

[Timfish]

I'm confused, you know Dissolved Inorganic Carbon (DIC) in reef systems is mostly HCO3 or bicarbonate (~95% @ 8.2 pH) with a little bit of CO2 and CO32 or carbonate right? DIC isn't a substitute for DOC.

As research shows time and again increased labile DOC is bad for corals as well as very dynamic microbial processes as well as species specific responses (DOC species vs microbial species vs coral species) how do you propose to monitor what's happening?

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm confused, you know Dissolved Inorganic Carbon (DIC) in reef systems is mostly HCO3 or bicarbonate (~95% @ 8.2 pH) with a little bit of CO2 and CO32 or carbonate right? DIC isn't a substitute for DOC.

As research shows time and again increased labile DOC is bad for corals as well as very dynamic microbial processes as well as species specific responses (DOC species vs microbial species vs coral species) how do you propose to monitor what's happening?

My thoughts here (for the discussion purposes) it’s that most of the more persistent dinoflagellates species tend to be mixotrophic that is the ability to swap from DIC to DOC or vice-versa for energy.
I’m aware that bicarbonate will also be available for some species to gain energy from.

My thoughts were, if it’s possible to reduce the availability of bicarbonate and carbon dioxide with a strong Refugium ( maybe have the photoperiod extended for 24 hours during outbreak) and if they were to change to DOC for energy, reduce the available in the water column by using SLDOC (semi-labile dissolved organic carbon) to promote bacterial growth that could compete with them for energy and nutrients. Starving them from the main source of energy on both fronts. Independently if they were using organic or inorganic carbon for energy.

 

[Timfish]

The papers I've linked to in other posts make it pretty clear excess labile DOC lets heterotrophic microbes proliferate by letting them make better use of semirefractory and refractory DOC as using these as an energy source uses oxygen and creates anoxic conditions in coral microbiomes. So what research do you have that shows adding semirefractory DOC doesn't cause heterotrophic microbial growth and drops oxygen levels? How do you propose to dose semirefractory DOC and not cause problems with corals? How do you propose to monitor corals microbiomes?


Since corals are using the same bicarbonate as algae how do you propose to maintain it for corals?

 

[sixty_reefer]

The papers I've linked to in other posts make it pretty clear excess labile DOC lets heterotrophic microbes proliferate by letting them make better use of semirefractory and refractory DOC as using these as an energy source uses oxygen and creates anoxic conditions in coral microbiomes. So what research do you have that shows adding semirefractory DOC doesn't cause heterotrophic microbial growth and drops oxygen levels? How do you propose to dose semirefractory DOC and not cause problems with corals? How do you propose to monitor corals microbiomes?


Since corals are using the same bicarbonate as algae how do you propose to maintain it for corals?

The overall thought is mainly for young tanks, it’s very rare to see nuisance blooms in older tanks full of coral, most likely due to the coral colonies already be competing for inorganic carbon as a Refugium would in a younger system with less coral.

LDOC would feed the nuisance hence not advisable to use in any instance were they are blooming, it has been shown in the past to make things worse. SLDOC doesn’t affec oxygen if in the right doses I believe this is the same type of DOC available in some products like MB7

 

[14 foot reef]

Gentleman, Start your engines !!!!!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I was going to add a similar reply but @Timfish beat me to it!

 

[Timfish]

The overall thought is mainly for young tanks, it’s very rare to see nuisance blooms in older tanks full of coral, most likely due to the coral colonies already be competing for inorganic carbon as a Refugium would in a younger system with less coral.

Let's not forget the role of phages in controlling algae. I know others besides myself have seen algae dissappear without any specific thing being done. Myself, I've seen nuisance algae dissapear with either no change in nitrate or PO4 or an increase which indicates the reduced demand in teh system by thier absence. I've also seen blooms that dissapear on their own over time when something stresses teh system as awhole.

LDOC would feed the nuisance hence not advisable to use in any instance were they are blooming, it has been shown in the past to make things worse. SLDOC doesn’t affec oxygen if in the right doses I believe this is the same type of DOC available in some products like MB7

I want to see the reasearch showing semirefractory DOC consumption by microbes doesn't affect oxygen. I also want to see the research showing autotrophic microbes can feed off semirefractory. And I want to see how it's being verified no heterotrophic microbes are feeding off semirefractory DOC. It looks to me a lot of faith is being put in suppositions that are contradicted by research.

Regardless, the research is pretty clear excess microbial growth in coral microbiomes is bad. Even the DOC from a coral can be bad for it when it's concentrated and applied back to the coral creating an increased microbial load in it's microbiome. My takaway from all the research Iv'e read is uncontrolled microbial growth is bad and anything that promotes microbial growth beyond what corals are doing themselves is questionable at best.

As an aside, researchers already have a term for DOC that falls between labile and refractory. Why not use their term, semirefractory, instead of creating another seperate term for the same thing?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Let's not forget the role of phages in controlling algae. I know others besides myself have seen algae dissappear without any specific thing being done. Myself, I've seen nuisance algae dissapear with either no change in nitrate or PO4 or an increase which indicates the reduced demand in teh system by thier absence. I've also seen blooms that dissapear on their own over time when something stresses teh system as awhole.




I want to see the reasearch showing semirefractory DOC consumption by microbes doesn't affect oxygen. I also want to see the research showing autotrophic microbes can feed off semirefractory. And I want to see how it's being verified no heterotrophic microbes are feeding off semirefractory DOC. It looks to me a lot of faith is being put in suppositions that are contradicted by research.

Regardless, the research is pretty clear excess microbial growth in coral microbiomes is bad. Even the DOC from a coral can be bad for it when it's concentrated and applied back to the coral creating an increased microbial load in it's microbiome. My takaway from all the research Iv'e read is uncontrolled microbial growth is bad and anything that promotes microbial growth beyond what corals are doing themselves is questionable at best.

As an aside, researchers already have a term for DOC that falls between labile and refractory. Why not use their term, semirefractory, instead of creating another seperate term for the same thing?

You bring good question, I feel that they are on a different subject, my question here was only if it could be more efficient to battle difficult strains of nuisance dinoflagellates or Cyanobacteria by starving them from carbon via introducing competition for inorganic and organic carbon simultaneously. SLDOC and RDOC have different meanings that are connected to the timescale to be broken down and available.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Im unsure I understand the purpose of trying to develop a new method to beat dinos and cyano when there are already simple methods for the majority of cases...I assume its just a curiosity.

 

[BeanAnimal]

. SLDOC and RDOC have different meanings that are connected to the timescale to be broken down and available.

I strongly suggest if you wish to walk away with any credibility, or google your way through a debate on this subject with Timfish. Just a friendly heads up.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I strongly suggest if you wish to walk away with any credibility, or google your way through a debate on this subject with Timfish. Just a friendly heads up.

Walk away from what exactly? What credibility are you referring to? Why don’t you educate me on the difference in the terminology?
I would also politely remind you, that you are in violation of R2R TOS, there is a ignore button for material you don’t wish to see. Thanks

 

[Miami Reef]

 

[BeanAnimal]

Walk away from what exactly? What credibility are you referring to? Why don’t you educate me on the difference in the terminology?

I can rephrase if it helps. My intent is not to be insulting but given your responses, you are in way over your head with Tim. Instead of trying to teach him or pretending to know more than him or all of us, maybe ask him questions. His expertise in this area is profound. It will make for a far more informative conversation and maybe help you get the answers and knowledge you seek.

I would also politely remind you, that you are in violation of R2R TOS, there is a ignore button for material you don’t wish to see. Thanks

If you feel that way, please do report. I have no reason to ignore you and in fact plenty of reasons to read what you post.

Most everyone who participates in these threads has an interest in reef sciences and many are very well informed, if not experts in the related fields. Having your opinion challenged is part of the model. Treating people as if these are lectures and dismissing them as lesser informed (in tone or in words) does not help the conversation.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I can rephrase if it helps. My intent is not to be insulting but given your responses, you are in way over your head with Tim. Instead of trying to teach him or pretending to know more than him or all of us, maybe ask him questions. His expertise in this area is profound. It will make for a far more informative conversation and maybe help you get the answers and knowledge you seek.


If you feel that way, please do report. I have no reason to ignore you and in fact plenty of reasons to read what you post.

Most everyone who participates in these threads has an interest in reef sciences and many are very well informed, if not experts in the related fields. Having your opinion challenged is part of the model. Treating people as if these are lectures and dismissing them as lesser informed (in tone or in words) does not help the conversation.

Politely, I was having a good conversation with Tim, I’ve had many discussions with Tim in the past and we tend to have similar views in some subjects. Your comment in this thread and other threads could be more be seen as “Spam” or “Trolling” there is no input to the conversation and it is not the first time that you put the same sarcastic comment into my threads.
Thanks

 

[BeanAnimal]

You bring good question, I feel that they are on a different subject, my question here was only if it could be more efficient to battle difficult strains of nuisance dinoflagellates or Cyanobacteria by starving them from carbon via introducing competition for inorganic and organic carbon simultaneously. SLDOC and RDOC have different meanings that are connected to the timescale to be broken down and available.

I responded as I did because you continue to sidestep the actual comments and revert back to your original claim, ignoring the responses pointing out the flaws in your hypothesis. It is a pattern that keeps occurring.

You continue to ignore the complexity of interactions in these systems and the lack of scientific data supporting your ideas about carbon competition (balanced or limiting or whatever term you have pivoted to).

 

[BeanAnimal]

.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I responded as I did because you continue to sidestep the actual comments and revert back to your original claim, ignoring the responses pointing out the flaws in your hypothesis. It is a pattern that keeps occurring.

You continue to ignore the complexity of interactions in these systems and the lack of scientific data supporting your ideas about carbon competition (balanced or limiting or whatever term you have pivoted to).

Politely the OP is a basic yes or no, but that ship has sailed now due to spamming and trolling on the thread.
Thanks

 

[BeanAnimal]

Politely the OP is a basic yes or no, but that ship has sailed now due to spamming and trolling on the thread.
Thanks

That feels like another deflection. You have not been trolled or spammed, you just don't like some of the responses.

I suppose you have your answer though. No, these systems are too complex to support your premise. Nothing is stopping you from undertaking an experiment though.