Direct switch from nopox to np-bacto-balance after carbon dosing for 2 months

lone reefer · Aug 26, 2023

I’ve seen this discussed a few times but I still have questions about switching carbon sources. My tank wb220 about 155-170gallon actual water volume has been running for an over a year and a half, it was started and cycled using media from my previous 9 year old 125g tank. I’ve overstocked it with fish slowly over this time. I was able to manage nutrients through water changes, skimming, fuge with cheato/ caulerpa till a few months ago when no3 started to rise to 20-25ppm and po4 over .1. Not bad but saw it trending up and wanted to start managing and lowering before things went any higher. I started very slowly dosing nopox about 1-2mls to start and over 2 months now up to 14 mls/day, and dosing phosphate e from 1-4mls/day because nopox wasn’t really lowering po4. It did slowly start lowering nutrients and I rarely dose phosphate e because my po4 is now fairly stead between.03-.1 Hanna ulr. My nitrates are still a little higher than I would like. They’ll go down to about 11ppm after my weekly 25-35% wc and go up to about 17ppm “Hanna” by the end of the week. I just got some TM elimi np and some bacto-balance. I would like to switch to the bactobalance in hopes of lowering nitrates and keeping them steady between 2-10ppm. I’m not sure if I should make the switch from nopox directly to bactobalance or use a combination of the 2? Or if it matters? My goal is to feed the coral by carbon dosing instead of just lowering nutrients. I’d also like recommendations on using phosphate e while using bactobalance if my po4 levels creep above.1. Nopox seems to be working but I have gotten at least one coral that is dying with what seems like a bacterial infection, so from what I can see TM claims that their product only feeds “good” bacteria but as @Randy Holmes-Farley points out there isn’t much evidence of that, but I figure it’s worth a try. I’ve also noticed the ph drop since carbon dosing and if it will eventually go back up after the tank adjusts or if the extra bacteria growth with limit how high my ph will go permanently? It was steady at 8.1-8.3 before carbon now 8-8.2 max which is still good but I’d like it higher. I am dosing 3300ml kalk daily 70% while lights off and roughly 30% while lights on and using a co2 currently recirculating on my skimmer. Any feed back or personal experience would be much appreciated on the issues.
Current tank parameters as of today before my weekly water change:
Alk 8.4 Hanna
Cal 450-460 redsea
Mag 1350-1400 salifert
Po4 .08-.1 Hanna ulr I use 2 meters cuz I don’t trust just one lol
No3 17ppm Hanna

jda · Aug 27, 2023

...lots in there.

There is no way to only feed good bacteria - if some bacteria can grow, so can others in a high tide lifts all ships type of deal.

Why not use an organic carbon source that you control like vinegar, sugar or vodka?

You can use Lanthanum Chloride products like Phosphate E as long as there is po4 left in the tank for bacteria to grow when using the organic carbon. Organic carbon does a better job at lower no3, but you do need a bit of phosphorous for those bacteria to multiply, so people like to keep phosphates on hand to meet that phosphorous need.

pH drop is likely because your home is closed up with the high temperature in San Antonio. Fresh air should lower it. If you do open your windows regularly, then never mind.

Your corals do not need fed at all if you have good lighting and are feeding your fish well. I would not believe any manufacturer claims of any product feeding a coral whatsoever... even if some products have the ability, the corals have to be currently unfed for them to probably work.

lone reefer · Aug 27, 2023

Well actually I do believe coral feed on bacteria 100%. I believe there is plenty of science to back that up. My main question is switching from nopox to a different carbon source like bactobalnce overnight going to create issues because it targets different types of bacteria? Nopox is just a mix of vinegar and vodka so essentially I have just been dosing vinegar and vodka and it has been working to lower nutrients. @Lou Ekus makes claims that their products target better bacteria and while there may not be much proof of this there also isn’t proof that it doesn’t, which is why I’m on here looking for people that have actually done this switch of carbon sources and what their experience was. Bactobalance looks and smells nothing like nopox and also looks completely different when being mixed into the tank water. “I already made the switch so we’ll see what happens” my other question about ph has little to do with where I live and how hot it is. It’s been hot here for the past 4-5 months and my ph was 8.1-8.3 steadily until I started carbon dosing with nopox 2 months ago. The drop coincided with carbon dosing and the bacteria consuming oxygen in the water. I’m already running a co2 scrubber and dosing kalk, my ph isn’t in a bad range 8-8.2 I was just wondering if anyone else had a similar situation when carbon dosing and what the long term results were?

jda · Aug 27, 2023

I do believe that some coral can consume bacteria. Doubt that all can. I also doubt that you need to dose anything for this to happen. Heck, a more diverse bacterial base than just AOB, NOB, etc. that you might get from real live rock could help more than bottles of a strain or two with some OC.

In the end, I would just suggest that you decide if you trust Lou, or not. You will have folks like me who have seen similar products since the 1990s make promises like this and then disappear just to be replaced by other products that make other promises. Then, you will have the folks who used this as the last thing and think that it made all of the difference.

If Lou wanted to provide any research, then we could look at it and see. In the end Jay said it best with something like: These reefing companies don't have any labs, they scan the articles looking for ideas.

Unless you have an indoor co2 monitor, it was still likely that a few months of a closed up home caused the co2 to jump eventually. I dosed organic carbon HEAVY in fish only tanks and the pH was not impacted - I did have fresh air in the home and used extra skimmers to remove the bacteria.

Pistondog · Aug 27, 2023

lone reefer said:
I’ve seen this discussed a few times but I still have questions about switching carbon sources. My tank wb220 about 155-170gallon actual water volume has been running for an over a year and a half, it was started and cycled using media from my previous 9 year old 125g tank. I’ve overstocked it with fish slowly over this time. I was able to manage nutrients through water changes, skimming, fuge with cheato/ caulerpa till a few months ago when no3 started to rise to 20-25ppm and po4 over .1. Not bad but saw it trending up and wanted to start managing and lowering before things went any higher. I started very slowly dosing nopox about 1-2mls to start and over 2 months now up to 14 mls/day, and dosing phosphate e from 1-4mls/day because nopox wasn’t really lowering po4. It did slowly start lowering nutrients and I rarely dose phosphate e because my po4 is now fairly stead between.03-.1 Hanna ulr. My nitrates are still a little higher than I would like. They’ll go down to about 11ppm after my weekly 25-35% wc and go up to about 17ppm “Hanna” by the end of the week. I just got some TM elimi np and some bacto-balance. I would like to switch to the bactobalance in hopes of lowering nitrates and keeping them steady between 2-10ppm. I’m not sure if I should make the switch from nopox directly to bactobalance or use a combination of the 2? Or if it matters? My goal is to feed the coral by carbon dosing instead of just lowering nutrients. I’d also like recommendations on using phosphate e while using bactobalance if my po4 levels creep above.1. Nopox seems to be working but I have gotten at least one coral that is dying with what seems like a bacterial infection, so from what I can see TM claims that their product only feeds “good” bacteria but as @Randy Holmes-Farley points out there isn’t much evidence of that, but I figure it’s worth a try. I’ve also noticed the ph drop since carbon dosing and if it will eventually go back up after the tank adjusts or if the extra bacteria growth with limit how high my ph will go permanently? It was steady at 8.1-8.3 before carbon now 8-8.2 max which is still good but I’d like it higher. I am dosing 3300ml kalk daily 70% while lights off and roughly 30% while lights on and using a co2 currently recirculating on my skimmer. Any feed back or personal experience would be much appreciated on the issues.
Current tank parameters as of today before my weekly water change:
Alk 8.4 Hanna
Cal 450-460 redsea
Mag 1350-1400 salifert
Po4 .08-.1 Hanna ulr I use 2 meters cuz I don’t trust just one lol
No3 17ppm Hanna

I think po4 below 0.3 is fine. Read the threads about lanthanum chloride, i wiuld not use it as you are.

Nitrates below 30ppm is a good target.

And as others have said, carbon dosing does not feed only 'good' bacteria.
Ive used vodka, vinegar, diy nopox, currently on bacto balance for 3 months.
I did half and half for 2 weeks when switching.

lone reefer · Aug 27, 2023

According to this article all coral studied consumed bacteria regardless of light. https://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/...studied consume dissolved,in a number of ways.

I’m not debating the types of bacteria the coral actually consumes, I’m looking for first hand experience of switching these particular products. 10 years ago when I started my first tank I used all live rock and used some of that same media and some bottled bacteria when starting my current tank over a year and half ago. I do believe diversity in bacteria and microorganisms highly benefit the ecosystem. My tank is pretty much full of coral and I feed heavily 4-5 times a day so there’s no doubt my tank is getting adequate nutrition. But I have had a few corals get what appear to be bacterial infections, but there’s no way to know what’s actually causing it? I’m willing to try different products in hopes that some of the claims the manufacturers make are true. I’ve seen some people say that they get good results from the TM products but haven’t seen anyone say what their experience was making an overnight switch from nopox to TM products. I guess I’ll find out for myself, it just would have been more reassuring to hear someone else’s experience.

lone reefer · Aug 27, 2023

Pistondog said:
I think po4 below 0.3 is fine. Read the threads about lanthanum chloride, i wiuld not use it as you are.

Nitrates below 30ppm is a good target.

And as others have said, carbon dosing does not feed only 'good' bacteria.
Ive used vodka, vinegar, diy nopox, currently on bacto balance for 3 months.
I did half and half for 2 weeks when switching.

Ok thank you, this is what I was looking for. How are you liking the bactobalance compared to the other carbon sources and how many mls/l are you dosing to achieve what nutrient levels? My nitrates have never been above 20-25 but my corals definitely looked more colorful and full at no3 below 10 which is where I’m aiming for a range between 2-10ppm. Also why not use 1-2mls phosphate e if I see my po4 getting to .1 or higher? If I see it getting to that point I just use a tiny bit and quickly drops it to about .03-.07 typically don’t need to dose it everyday. I was using rowaphos for years and decided to stop because I read so many thing’s saying that it would strip beneficial elements from the water. Also curious if you noticed an impact on your ph while carbon dosing?

Pistondog · Aug 27, 2023

i dont think lanthanum should be in the display tank, unneccesarily.
We dose lc diluted 50:1 over several hours into the overflow. Only when po4 levels are above 0.2 ppm. We catch the flocculant with 5 micron sox.
I think limiting the use to above 0.2 helps minimize unreacted lc in contact with livestock. The other methods capture most of the flocculant before makning it to the dt.
Any carbon dosing will increase bacteria, increasing co2, reducing ph. Vinegar also temporarily reduces ph when added.
I agree with your gfo concerns.

lone reefer · Aug 27, 2023

Ok good to know about the phosphate e. I try to use it sparingly but will dilute it if needed in the future. Haven’t noticed any terribly ill effects as far as I can tell so far. But maybe that’s why a couple of my corals seemed unhappy? So are you noticing a difference with the bacto-balance compared to your previous carbon sources? What do you maintain your nutrient levels at? I know every tank is different and I actually have 3 reef tanks, a 10g a 100g and the 220 all running slightly different dosing method and nutrient loads. My main concern is the 220 because it is “overstocked” but no3 is the level I’m most concerned about. Po4 doesn’t get too high because mostly feed frozen and live foods and few pellets (only seaweed extreme) my other tanks are under 10pm no3 and I can tell a difference in the color and fullness of those corals. There maybe other factors for that but I think the overall consensus is that nitrates at 10 or below are desirable for most tanks and conditions. Even when I get close to 10ppm in the 220 the corals just look overall better. So are you noticing any positive effects of the bactobalance over other carbon sources?

Pistondog · Aug 27, 2023

lone reefer said:
Ok good to know about the phosphate e. I try to use it sparingly but will dilute it if needed in the future. Haven’t noticed any terribly ill effects as far as I can tell so far. But maybe that’s why a couple of my corals seemed unhappy? So are you noticing a difference with the bacto-balance compared to your previous carbon sources? What do you maintain your nutrient levels at? I know every tank is different and I actually have 3 reef tanks, a 10g a 100g and the 220 all running slightly different dosing method and nutrient loads. My main concern is the 220 because it is “overstocked” but no3 is the level I’m most concerned about. Po4 doesn’t get too high because mostly feed frozen and live foods and few pellets (only seaweed extreme) my other tanks are under 10pm no3 and I can tell a difference in the color and fullness of those corals. There maybe other factors for that but I think the overall consensus is that nitrates at 10 or below are desirable for most tanks and conditions. Even when I get close to 10ppm in the 220 the corals just look overall better. So are you noticing any positive effects of the bactobalance over other carbon sources?

Po4 is between 0.15 and 0.4ppm.
Nitrates are low, 4ppm. I dose ammonium bicarb to raise available nitrogen.
Consensus doesn't mean correct.
There are some who maintain nitrate levels, within reason, are irrelavent.
but i would say 10 ppm is a good target, especially if that demonstrates positive results for you.
less cyano with bacto balance, less to dose, so less refilling dosing container.

lone reefer · Aug 27, 2023

Excellent, thank you!

Lou Ekus · Aug 28, 2023

jda said:
I do believe that some coral can consume bacteria. Doubt that all can. I also doubt that you need to dose anything for this to happen. Heck, a more diverse bacterial base than just AOB, NOB, etc. that you might get from real live rock could help more than bottles of a strain or two with some OC.

In the end, I would just suggest that you decide if you trust Lou, or not. You will have folks like me who have seen similar products since the 1990s make promises like this and then disappear just to be replaced by other products that make other promises. Then, you will have the folks who used this as the last thing and think that it made all of the difference.

If Lou wanted to provide any research, then we could look at it and see. In the end Jay said it best with something like: These reefing companies don't have any labs, they scan the articles looking for ideas.

Unless you have an indoor co2 monitor, it was still likely that a few months of a closed up home caused the co2 to jump eventually. I dosed organic carbon HEAVY in fish only tanks and the pH was not impacted - I did have fresh air in the home and used extra skimmers to remove the bacteria.

I can't speak for other salt companies. But I do need to say that Tropic Marin, and many of our better competitors, cartainly have labs and do lots of research in-house. One of the primary owners of Tropic Marin is a chemist. We have many other chemists on staff, along with scientists like Hans-Werner Balling (and more) that do much of the research in the developement of our products. The statement that

These reefing companies don't have any labs, they scan the articles looking for ideas.

is just ill informed and making assumptions without any base in knowledge of the back end of our hobby. Companies like Tropic Marin work very hard at designing and selling products based in good, solid science. Some of that comes from research of papers published in the field, and some from in-house research. Even if that research is not done in a “publishable form”. But a blanket statement like this, in my opinion, is very misleading and not helpful to the hobby.

jda · Aug 28, 2023

Nobody said that you don't do research or don't employ chemists or that the products are even bad. The sentiment is that you don't have labs to test, verify and publish results of your products. If you have even medium-term tests and numbers from using bacto-balance over other organic carbon sources in your own labs, then you would have likely posted them, or you should now. I have no doubt that you researched and found something different to try or by combing other things into fewer bottles, but it is still a trust-me type of deal to be sorted out in hobbyist tanks.

Every company has had trust-me products that just did not work out and and are now discontinued. This is part of the deal... been this way since 1992 when I started reefing.