Dinoflagellate’s vs Rock type and Substrate

[Reefahholic]

I am curious if rock type and substrate has any influence on the development of Dinoflagellate’s.

We know that Dino’s typically start from depleted nutrients, nutrient imbalance’s, new systems lacking microbiome, or a combination of these.

It would be interesting to look at which rock types were used, and if these systems were started with substrate or bare bottom.

I guess I could go first. If anybody else is interested, please chime in.

I started my tank with Macro Dry Rock that was cured for 1 year. I also had Tropic Eden Mesoflakes in the system and live sand. About 5-6 weeks in my nutrients bottomed out and I started to see Dino’s developing on the rocks. Despite dosing nutrients back to the system, I was unable to hold them off before they took over.

I did cut every Acro plug off and base, dipped every coral, and only introduced live tissue into the system. I even scraped every Vermetid snail off every snail shell that went into the system and then brushed their shells with a wire brush. So I created the perfect sterile environment for Dino’s.


Here was the start of Ostreopsis on the dry rock. I saw it coming, was already dosing N&P, but it wasn’t enough to stop them.

They progressed into this later on:

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am curious if rock type and substrate has any influence on the development of Dinoflagellate’s.

We know that Dino’s typically start from depleted nutrients, nutrient imbalance’s, new systems lacking microbiome, or a combination of these.

It would be interesting to look at which rock types were used, and if these systems were started with substrate or bare bottom.

I guess I could go first. If anybody else is interested, please chime in.

I started my tank with Macro Dry Rock that was cured for 1 year. I also had Tropic Eden Mesoflakes in the system and live sand. About 5-6 weeks in my nutrients bottomed out and I started to see Dino’s developing on the rocks. Despite dosing nutrients back to the system, I was unable to hold them off before they took over.

I did cut every Acro plug off and base, dipped every coral, and only introduced live tissue into the system. I even scraped every Vermetid snail off every snail shell that went into the system and then brushed their shells with a wire brush. So I created the perfect sterile environment for Dino’s.


Here was the start of Ostreopsis on the dry rock. I saw it coming, was already dosing N&P, but it wasn’t enough to stop them.

They progressed into this later on:

Generally not as does low to no nutrients in particular phosphate and nitrate however it would contribute to diatoms due to silicate content

 

[sixty_reefer]

Im from the thought that nutrient are the main issue if adding N and P didn’t work or was too late most likely the system was in lack of C to aid the bloom in heterotrophic bacteria

 

[Miami Reef]

I transferred corals and inverts from a dino infested QT tank (coolia) into my display and never got a dino bloom there. It’s all about the environment. You can’t avoid them by trying to go sterile.

 

[Reefahholic]

I transferred corals and inverts from a dino infested QT tank (coolia) into my display and never got a dino bloom there. It’s all about the environment. You can’t avoid them by trying to go sterile.

I was only trying to avoid all the darn pest’s, but in hindsight I’d probably take the pests if I could have prevented it from the beginning.

 

[Reefahholic]

Im from the thought that nutrient are the main issue if adding N and P didn’t work or was too late most likely the system was in lack of C to aid the bloom in heterotrophic bacteria

It was just because the rock was binding so aggressively that I couldn’t keep up by manual dosing. Well, I could but not with Acro’s in the system. Dose’s would have been too potent, and I wasn’t gonna standby the tank 24/7 dosing micro doses.

I was very happy to get the doser online.

 

[Petcrazyson]

I have Caribsea life rock, and I’ve had Dinos before and they seem to take over quite slower than other rocks, at least in my experience.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have Caribsea life rock, and I’ve had Dinos before and they seem to take over quite slower than other rocks, at least in my experience.

Form what I’ve seen, Marco rock is like a Dino magnet. I’m not exactly sure if it’s the clay content in the rock or the fact that the rock seems to bind PO4 more than other calcium carbonate rock. Although I have had some Marco rock that seems to saturate much different than other macro rock. I have an example of that in my tank now. Some rocks are a deep brown green color and others are almost bright white and the rock is all approaching 2 yrs old. Something that comes in some of those rocks is not good. Not saying it’s dangerous but it prevents the rock from maturing like it should. When I was researching Florida limestone I noticed that depending on where it was collected it could be much different and even in the same rock quarry. Typically the further south you get the better the rock gets, and has less clay content.

 

[SaltwaterandLime]

In 5 tank set ups, the only one I ever saw dinos in was also the only tank I've ever set up using Marco rock. I realize that correlation does not prove causation.... but still

 

[Reefahholic]

In 5 tank set ups, the only one I ever saw dinos in was also the only tank I've ever set up using Marco rock. I realize that correlation does not prove causation.... but still

Yep, I’ve seen this repeatedly. Not saying it’s the rock itself, but there seems to be a strong correlation between Dinoflagellate’s and Marco Dry Rock.

I know exactly why my current tank got Dino’s. Or should I say why there was an outbreak. It stemmed from the rock stealing all the PO4 about 7 weeks in. It started off normal and since I cured the rock for over 1 year it caught me off guard. The tank was acting completely normal and then about the 7th week threw me a hard curve ball. But….that is reefing and I learn form every situation. Tank was started January 4th. As you will see below the rock started binding and I immediately started dosing. However, it got so aggressive that I couldn’t keep up. Eventually I got the doser online but it was too late. When Marco rock is wanting to bind, it is no joke. It got much more aggressive than what you see below.

 

[legionofdoon]

I started with dry rock from Amazon. Went well for a about a year while I was letting it mature in the tank. Had zero issues until I started using nopox to get my nitrates down below ten. Woke up one morning and saw a couple of snot bubbles on the sand bed went to work came home 24 hours later and my tank looked like a train wreck. Dinos on everything the rock my corals, my refugium. I lost everything but my zoas and fish. I tried lights out, peroxide, siphoning through a 10 micron filter sock and nothing worked. I eventually bought pods from algae barn, waste away and bought more fish. Now I dose neophos into my top off to keep my phosphate detectible. I put 35 mls into 5 gallons that lasts about a week. My Coraline had taken off and my surviving zoas have started to regrow. I also lowered my light intensity to about half of what it was. I did get a increase in diatoms on my sand when I first started neophos but it's clearing up now. I just today put a montipora in so far it has decent polyp extension. I've also decided to not do anything different for one month at a time. Which I started in June and things definitely look better. My first tank was started with live rock and sand, didn't dose anything but two part and had a refugium and that tank was bullet proof. Unfortunately I had to move.

 

[Reefahholic]

I started with dry rock from Amazon. Went well for a about a year while I was letting it mature in the tank. Had zero issues until I started using nopox to get my nitrates down below ten. Woke up one morning and saw a couple of snot bubbles on the sand bed went to work came home 24 hours later and my tank looked like a train wreck. Dinos on everything the rock my corals, my refugium. I lost everything but my zoas and fish. I tried lights out, peroxide, siphoning through a 10 micron filter sock and nothing worked. I eventually bought pods from algae barn, waste away and bought more fish. Now I dose neophos into my top off to keep my phosphate detectible. I put 35 mls into 5 gallons that lasts about a week. My Coraline had taken off and my surviving zoas have started to regrow. I also lowered my light intensity to about half of what it was. I did get a increase in diatoms on my sand when I first started neophos but it's clearing up now. I just today put a montipora in so far it has decent polyp extension. I've also decided to not do anything different for one month at a time. Which I started in June and things definitely look better. My first tank was started with live rock and sand, didn't dose anything but two part and had a refugium and that tank was bullet proof. Unfortunately I had to move.

Dry rock is definitely more difficult. Makes you question why we even try to do it. It’s gonna take me a good two years to get the tank really growing. Is it worth it? Yes and No.

So far I have nuked Fluconazole that came in. It appears that my bubble algae is gone (I hope). I just kept removing every bubble I’ve seen and now I haven’t seen any in months. I keep looking at night and nothing. In 9 months I haven’t seen one Vermetid snail! Super happy about that. I have zero Aiptasia. If things keep going like this I guess it’s been a win. I think I’ll have the Dino remnants gone in a few months.

 

[ggNoRe]

I got marco rocks and had a horrid dino outbreak as well.

 

[Aqua Man]

I started my tank with Macro Dry Rock that was cured for 1 year.

The dry rock that I started with years ago didn’t have any specific name. Bought at on old school LFS, big pile of white rock sitting outside and sold by the pound. Some of the pieces looked like bleached coral skeleton. Some did not.

I have 4 tanks that all have that same rock. So far only 2 have been plagued by Dino. PO4 bottomed out is what I suspect as the cause

I’m curious on how you cured your rock? Did you do any PO4 tests on it during the curing process? What if we added PO4 during the curing process?? Would this prevent future issues?

Could be the rock. Could also be that many aquarists are cycling there tanks with ammonia and bacteria. I’ve always been a fan of the shrimp method though.

 

[Reefahholic]

I’m curious on how you cured your rock? Did you do any PO4 tests on it during the curing process? What if we added PO4 during the curing process?? Would this prevent future issues?

So here is my theory. I did dose PO4 and a little NO3. Also several dose’s of different bacteria. Mostly Dr. Tim’s. I treated it as a reef tank in the beginning for the first 6 months. I tested the water chemistry and had it on point. The second 6 months is where I believe the problem started occurring. I was getting so hammered by Covid in the hospital that I did not have time to look after the rock. I suspect during that time that the bacteria ate up all the nitrates and phosphate, and the surface biofilm on the rock. I believe the rock was completely depleted of nutrients for quite a while. This lead to extreme phosphate binding by the rock. I think essentially the bacteria turned the rock into a giant PO4 sponge.

 

[ELChingonsReef]

I am curious if rock type and substrate has any influence on the development of Dinoflagellate’s.

We know that Dino’s typically start from depleted nutrients, nutrient imbalance’s, new systems lacking microbiome, or a combination of these.

It would be interesting to look at which rock types were used, and if these systems were started with substrate or bare bottom.

I guess I could go first. If anybody else is interested, please chime in.

I started my tank with Macro Dry Rock that was cured for 1 year. I also had Tropic Eden Mesoflakes in the system and live sand. About 5-6 weeks in my nutrients bottomed out and I started to see Dino’s developing on the rocks. Despite dosing nutrients back to the system, I was unable to hold them off before they took over.

I did cut every Acro plug off and base, dipped every coral, and only introduced live tissue into the system. I even scraped every Vermetid snail off every snail shell that went into the system and then brushed their shells with a wire brush. So I created the perfect sterile environment for Dino’s.


Here was the start of Ostreopsis on the dry rock. I saw it coming, was already dosing N&P, but it wasn’t enough to stop them.

They progressed into this later on:

I have year old tank started with marco rock. I get dinos often. I dose p04 every day at least 5mls . So my question is does the rock eventually stop binding p04 or should I take the marco rock out of my system and add live rock. I went the dry rock route to avoid pests. I have pests anyway so it was pointless. I was trying to avoid vermented snails and other stuff that comes on live rock. It didn't work out.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have year old tank started with marco rock. I get dinos often. I dose p04 every day at least 5mls . So my question is does the rock eventually stop binding p04 or should I take the marco rock out of my system and add live rock. I went the dry rock route to avoid pests. I have pests anyway so it was pointless. I was trying to avoid vermented snails and other stuff that comes on live rock. It didn't work out.

If you’re not far along I’d remove it. Especially if you didn’t build some amazing scape. Marco takes a good 1-1.5 years to start to act right. The first year is horrible.

 

[lakai]

Should soak the stuff in Po4 when cycling. Easier to remove than to introduce after bottoming out.

 

[ELChingonsReef]

If you’re not far along I’d remove it. Especially if you didn’t build some amazing scape. Marco takes a good 1-1.5 years to start to act right. The first year is horrible.

I'm already past the one year mark . I started the tank in August 2021 . The rock is covered in Coralline algae. I have a bunch of healthy acropora mini colonys. Thats what makes me nervous about disrupting the system. But I'm tired of the dinos. I run a UV sterilizer every day 24hrs a day. I can't imagine how much worse it would be without it. I also get cyano outbreaks once and a while too. So at 1.5 years that's where I'm at right now. I still have trouble keeping phosphate up.

 

[ELChingonsReef]

There's not too much of that marco rock . The center rock structure is a caribsea rock tower and the rest is glued marco rock