Dino plan of attack

[Melinda01]

I posted on here a couple weeks ago about a bad algae outbreak that I have. I’m pretty sure now that it is dinoflagellates. It is brownish red, stringy, and has many bubbles. It has now taken over my entire tank! So many things have changed over the past few months it’s hard to narrow down what caused it. I had a velvet outbreak removed fish. Had to remove rock to get fish. My husband removed the rock from the tank again while I was at work to reaquascape. I added radions and gyres as well as some corals. Started feeding the corals every other day. now I have a mess! Not to mention that the nitrates went from being off the charts to zero in a matter of a couple months with water changes and vinegar dosing. (I had no idea that could be a problem at the time).
So far I have stopped vinegar dosing, tried peroxide treatment, and turned lights out for 3 days. As soon as the lights came back on, even just the acnic, the dinos started reappearing.

Now I think I’m going to try to feed more, maybe every other day because it is just inverts in the tank. This is an effort to increase nitrate and phosphate a bit. Siphon our as much as I can through a filter. Change the filter. Remove corals to QT. Black out the tank for a week or two. Dose peroxide during this time.
I don’t have an ato to dose kalk. (Ph is 8-8.2 with lights out)
Does this sound like a plan that would get rid of dinos?
Also, when syphoning the sand, should I just rinse it in ro or saltwater and return to the tank?
Any help or advice would be appreciated! This is getting out of control. The tank looks terrible!

 

[mcarroll]

@Melinda01 if you would, check in over at the dino stick thread at the top of this forum.....the info and tools to characterize your algae outbreak and confirm whether dino's or cyano or ? are blooming....as well as remediation steps to get your tank on the right track.

Eliminating your carbon dosing routine as well as any other nutrient removal media (e.g. GFO) that your're using are great first steps (as you'll see from reading)!

 

[mcarroll]

Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

 

[Melinda01]

@Melinda01 if you would, check in over at the dino stick thread at the top of this forum.....the info and tools to characterize your algae outbreak and confirm whether dino's or cyano or ? are blooming....as well as remediation steps to get your tank on the right track.

Eliminating your carbon dosing routine as well as any other nutrient removal media (e.g. GFO) that your're using are great first steps (as you'll see from reading)!

Thank you. I did read that thread. I don’t have a microscope for confirmation but I’m pretty sure it’s Dinos I’m dealing with because before I took the other measures mentioned, I did a 20% water change and they got much worse. Plus, they are covered in bubbles, snotty looking, and chemiclean that I used just prior to the water change didn’t seem to make a dent in them at all. It has now been 2 weeks since the water change. I tested my water parameters today and the nitrates are 0.75 and phosphate 0.08. Is it possible that over time increasing nutrients and syphoning alone could get rid of them? Any idea what ideal parameters are to beat this ugly beast?

 

[mcarroll]

Pretty strange to have positive nutrient levels AND dino's, but I'm gathering the nutrient levels were from how the rock was re-processed....and the zero-levels were from the dino's "asserting themselves".

How long ago did the levels go back from zero to positive? Is .75 and 0.08 typical of what those levels have been recently?

Did the dino's seem to get better or worse as nutrient levels increased?

(Stop over-feeding, BTW, in case you are trying that as part of a solution....that's going to create cyano at the end of the dino bloom....or make it worse than it will already be. If nutrients get close to zero, you want to correct with inorganic fertilizers like Flourish, or the similar products form Brightwell or others, and keep your feeding levels correct for your larger organisms.)

 

[Melinda01]

Pretty strange to have positive nutrient levels AND dino's, but I'm gathering the nutrient levels were from how the rock was re-processed....and the zero-levels were from the dino's "asserting themselves".

How long ago did the levels go back from zero to positive? Is .75 and 0.08 typical of what those levels have been recently?

Did the dino's seem to get better or worse as nutrient levels increased?

(Stop over-feeding, BTW, in case you are trying that as part of a solution....that's going to create cyano at the end of the dino bloom....or make it worse than it will already be. If nutrients get close to zero, you want to correct with inorganic fertilizers like Flourish, or the similar products form Brightwell or others, and keep your feeding levels correct for your larger organisms.)

I test all parameters once a week. Phosphate has been reading 0.04 since the rock was moved a couple months ago. I didn’t test it before because there was no sign of a problem. Just read 0.08 today. (Probably due to overfeeding to bring up nitrate). I just tested nitrate with a Red Sea kit for the 1st time today to see what the lower parameters actually are. I’m not sure what it has been. Still reads zero on an API kit and that’s what I had been going by before.
Seems much more green than it has been today. They were more brown before. Unless that’s just because I turned the lights all the way up to take these pictures.

 

[mcarroll]

Looks like you have a fun blend going on there....a co-bloom, as it's apparently called.

It may not be pretty, but it might actually be a sign that your tank isn't that bad off. Keep yours eyes on it so you can tell if it keeps getting greener since that's good....browner is "badder"!

Get used to the not-pretty part, since that can get worse while the tank actually gets better. You and the CUC will have to do your best to keep up with it.

You do clearly have some dino-snottiness in there, so get some fertilizers on hand so you can affirm NO3 and PO4 levels of ≥5-10 ppm and ≥0.10 ppm, respectively. Since you have other algae growing, that might be all you have to do to tilt the balance away from the dino bloom.

But do not wait. Zero nitrate levels are not as bad as zero phosphates, but still bad.

 

[Melinda01]

Looks like you have a fun blend going on there....a co-bloom, as it's apparently called.

It may not be pretty, but it might actually be a sign that your tank isn't that bad off. Keep yours eyes on it so you can tell if it keeps getting greener since that's good....browner is "badder"!

Get used to the not-pretty part, since that can get worse while the tank actually gets better. You and the CUC will have to do your best to keep up with it.

You do clearly have some dino-snottiness in there, so get some fertilizers on hand so you can affirm NO3 and PO4 levels of ≥5-10 ppm and ≥0.10 ppm, respectively. Since you have other algae growing, that might be all you have to do to tilt the balance away from the dino bloom.

But do not wait. Zero nitrate levels are not as bad as zero phosphates, but still bad.

Thanks so much for your responses. I’ll try to syphon what I can through the filter and water back into the tank to keep from doing a water change. I’ll invest in flourish and see if that helps! I want to get the tank in check before I start adding the fish back in. I’m afraid the Dino would kill them.
Quick question. Do I just dose per instructions to increase nitrate? Wasn’t sure since this isn’t the intended use of the product.

 

[mcarroll]

Last time I checked, you can actually follow the instructions AND guidelines on Flourish....very close to our recommendation, or even the same. We're actually pretty much on-purpose (growing plants with fertilizer!), it just seems weird because of how we have been trained to think of nutrients and algae in reefs. It's all twisted. Reading up on the nutrients references in the first post on that dino thread I linked will explain the other factors at work where so much of the nutrients actually go.....in a bad dino-bloom a lot actually goes to composting....(fertilizer talk seems a little more famiilar?)....all the dead dino cell's that get left during a bloom. They make for an intense carbon source...coupled with the bacterial load in the tank, that leads to your nutrient levels being consumed down to unusable levels. (See someone who mixes wood chips or unripe compost into their garden soil and then tries to plant in it....no available nutrients. Plant death or poor growth/poor health ensues.)

 

[Melinda01]

Last time I checked, you can actually follow the instructions AND guidelines on Flourish....very close to our recommendation, or even the same. We're actually pretty much on-purpose (growing plants with fertilizer!), it just seems weird because of how we have been trained to think of nutrients and algae in reefs. It's all twisted. Reading up on the nutrients references in the first post on that dino thread I linked will explain the other factors at work where so much of the nutrients actually go.....in a bad dino-bloom a lot actually goes to composting....(fertilizer talk seems a little more famiilar?)....all the dead dino cell's that get left during a bloom. They make for an intense carbon source...coupled with the bacterial load in the tank, that leads to your nutrient levels being consumed down to unusable levels. (See someone who mixes wood chips or unripe compost into their garden soil and then tries to plant in it....no available nutrients. Plant death or poor growth/poor health ensues.)

I never did have a green thumb! Will do and try to remember to keep you posted if/ when I win this battle of the ugly tank syndrome!

 

[mcarroll]

Consider a toy microscope like recommended in that thread too....$10-20 is totally worth it, and you might be able to fine tune your strategy...or at least find some really cool stuff to look at!!!

 

[Melinda01]

Consider a toy microscope like recommended in that thread too....$10-20 is totally worth it, and you might be able to fine tune your strategy...or at least find some really cool stuff to look at!!!

I’ll see what I can find! Micro was my favorite subject in college. Maybe I can use it to my advantage

 

[mcarroll]

The $10-20 toy scope is totally usable (check out that thread!) but you get a MUCH BETTER scope for >$50 if you think you might really be into it. >$50 still isn't all that much...

 

[Melinda01]

The $10-20 toy scope is totally usable (check out that thread!) but you get a MUCH BETTER scope for >$50 if you think you might really be into it. >$50 still isn't all that much...

Ordered one from amazon. >$50 but should be good based on reviews

 

[Melinda01]

Ordered one from amazon. >$50 but should be good based on reviews

So far the tank still looks pretty bad. More strings but less bubbles and more green than before. I have the microscope but haven’t used it yet because I’ve been working some crazy hours. I have dosed nitrate and phosphate. As of yesterday the nitrate measures 10-20 using the API kit and the phos measures 0.12 with the Red Sea. I ordered a 24 watt green machine uv with a built in pump of 70 gph flow. I’ve read success stories with Dino’s and other algae using uv steralizers. Do you think using this and blowing off rocks and sandbed at night (so that it’ll make its way to the uv) may help get rid of the bloom? The dino seems to stay put at night and not go away in the dark.

 

[Melinda01]

Looks like you have a fun blend going on there....a co-bloom, as it's apparently called.

It may not be pretty, but it might actually be a sign that your tank isn't that bad off. Keep yours eyes on it so you can tell if it keeps getting greener since that's good....browner is "badder"!

Get used to the not-pretty part, since that can get worse while the tank actually gets better. You and the CUC will have to do your best to keep up with it.

You do clearly have some dino-snottiness in there, so get some fertilizers on hand so you can affirm NO3 and PO4 levels of ≥5-10 ppm and ≥0.10 ppm, respectively. Since you have other algae growing, that might be all you have to do to tilt the balance away from the dino bloom.

But do not wait. Zero nitrate levels are not as bad as zero phosphates, but still bad.

I think I may be getting the upper hand. There is definitely more green! The SPS and long spine urchin are taking a hit but today nitrate measured 2 (I added some more) and the phos is remaining consistent at 0.12. I’ve been blowing off every surface of the tank that I see brown stringy nasties. When they are still suspended in the water I’ve been dosing 20mL of 3% peroxide. I plan to blow them off again later and syphon them through a filter sock, then return the water to the tank. I have a uv steralizer ordered so hopefully that’ll help as well! Sucks, I would like to beef up my cuc but I’m afraid to add them directly to the DT with the velvet nightmare I recently had Thanks again for your help! I’ll keep you posted.

 

[mcarroll]

When they are still suspended in the water I’ve been dosing 20mL of 3% peroxide.

Dicey plan. Not really recommended as peroxide is sorta counter to your overall goal of growing things to compete with and eat your dino's.....peroxide is totally non-selective and most other critters are more susceptible than dino's.

Keep up the rest of the good work – siphon after you blow off the rocks...or just do the blowing and nothing else. The UV filter you have on the way or a diatom filter are the alternatives you really want to be engaging. Some blowing and siphoning may still be required.

I plan to blow them off again later and syphon them through a filter sock, then return the water to the tank.

Unless you have a very fine mesh (<50µ) sock to trap a high percentage of dino's, this may not help a lot.

I would skip the sock and instead siphon only the absolute minimal amount of water needed to do the siphoning (use a small-diameter tube to help) and simply replace the water with fresh-mixed saltwater that has been properly dosed with NO3 and PO4 to match tank levels. Folks worry about water changes, but this should be a very small one that will have no impact on nutrients but a LARGE impact on the visible dino population. So no worry.

Great to see improvements coming!!!

 

[Melinda01]

Dicey plan. Not really recommended as peroxide is sorta counter to your overall goal of growing things to compete with and eat your dino's.....peroxide is totally non-selective and most other critters are more susceptible than dino's.

Keep up the rest of the good work – siphon after you blow off the rocks...or just do the blowing and nothing else. The UV filter you have on the way or a diatom filter are the alternatives you really want to be engaging. Some blowing and siphoning may still be required.



Unless you have a very fine mesh (<50µ) sock to trap a high percentage of dino's, this may not help a lot.

I would skip the sock and instead siphon only the absolute minimal amount of water needed to do the siphoning (use a small-diameter tube to help) and simply replace the water with fresh-mixed saltwater that has been properly dosed with NO3 and PO4 to match tank levels. Folks worry about water changes, but this should be a very small one that will have no impact on nutrients but a LARGE impact on the visible dino population. So no worry.

Great to see improvements coming!!!

The filter sock is actually 25um polypropylene. Do you think that will work? Someone else told me it would and that’s why I ordered a couple of them. I will stop the peroxide dosing as well. Just trying to find any way I can to get rid of those nasty things! Hopefully the steralizer will be here today or tomorrow!

 

[mcarroll]

25 micron should do pretty well!

 

[Melinda01]

25 micron should do pretty well!

Just wanted to give you an update. I’ve been blowing off the rocks and sand every day. The uv has been in since Wednesday. Yesterday I syphoned what I could through the filter sock. Today the nitrates test at 15 and phos 0.12. The tank is for sure more green and less brown. The birds nest has taken a beating because the Dino’s just sit on it no matter how many times a day I blow them off but I think that I may be winning this battle with your help. As soon as the Brown is all gone I will add fish and see about increasing the cuc. Thank you! I’ll keep you updated as I see a difference.