Dino ID Help

[Nick711]

40g mixed reef. 8-9mo old. 5 fish. Wide assortment of inverts & some LPS / soft coral & RFAs. No changes to tank inhabitants since Sept.

Alk 8.9
Calc 480
Mag 1350
Phos 0.03
Nitrate 8.8

(Phos / Nitrate tested at minimum bi-weekly, have never bottomed out. Hanna testers).

Feed predominantly frozen w. pellets mixed in. Sparingly spot feed corals / anemones. Dose phyto a few times a week. Reef AB+ sparingly. Skimmer runs 24/7. Empty every couple weeks

Have been battling GHA on my sand for a bit, and over the past couple weeks, noticed what I believed to be diatoms starting to also be present on sand / GHA. It has since grown to be more pronounced / brown and today I looked at some under a cheap microscope (250x) and suspect I am dealing with Dinos.

Have posted a couple still images along with a link to 1) two swimming videos and 2) video of tank (and the one area in particular most affected, although most of the sand has it).

No noticeable bubbles.

Based on my research, I was leaning large-cell Amphidinium, but would highly appreciate any thoughts as well. Thank you.

Tank shot:

Microscope shot 1 (sorry for quality)

Microscope shot 2 (sorry for quality)

 

[Dan_P]

40g mixed reef. 8-9mo old. 5 fish. Wide assortment of inverts & some LPS / soft coral & RFAs. No changes to tank inhabitants since Sept.

Alk 8.9
Calc 480
Mag 1350
Phos 0.03
Nitrate 8.8

(Phos / Nitrate tested at minimum bi-weekly, have never bottomed out. Hanna testers).

Feed predominantly frozen w. pellets mixed in. Sparingly spot feed corals / anemones. Dose phyto a few times a week. Reef AB+ sparingly. Skimmer runs 24/7. Empty every couple weeks

Have been battling GHA on my sand for a bit, and over the past couple weeks, noticed what I believed to be diatoms starting to also be present on sand / GHA. It has since grown to be more pronounced / brown and today I looked at some under a cheap microscope (250x) and suspect I am dealing with Dinos.

Have posted a couple still images along with a link to 1) two swimming videos and 2) video of tank (and the one area in particular most affected, although most of the sand has it).

No noticeable bubbles.

Based on my research, I was leaning large-cell Amphidinium, but would highly appreciate any thoughts as well. Thank you.

Tank shot:

Microscope shot 1 (sorry for quality)

Microscope shot 2 (sorry for quality)

Look up Prorocentrum. Do they look like that?

 

[Nick711]

Tried two more pictures, but think I’m just limited with the type of scope I’m using. While mostly symmetrical, it seems Prorocentrum have one circular structure in the cell, but these all clearly have two. I also do not necessarily see a pronounced beak, as would be seen in Amphidinium…

I was leaning LCA based on the other attributes I read - no strands, low bubbles, sand only, but don’t think I have a clear ID either way.

As a first step I was planning to dose silica to promote diatom growth and work on raising nutrients, even though they’ve always been detectable / at what I thought to be good levels.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Agree on Procentrium and one that colonizes easily. Dont see these too often. Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10% IF you have light dependant corals such as SPS) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights which works as an oxidizer. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED AMINO OR ADD NOPOX which is food for dinos, however you can feed coral, food which will help no3 and po4 to increase. If increasing nutrients, try to keep no3 to about 5 until you are done battling these cells.
Doing a daily siphoning will help greatly But . . . . . Siphoning will reduce nutrients , so siphon the water into/through a filter sock and save the water and return it back to tank. Obviously clean the filter sock each time.
You can feed fish as normal and if doing blackout, ambient light in room will work for them

 

[Lavey29]

https://www.reef2reef.com/attachments/dinoflagellateid12_12_2019-pdf.1324729/

 

[Nick711]

@vetteguy53081 appreciate the suggestions, I reduced lighting to 10% for today, dosed a small amount of H202 & added some MB7. Separately fed reef roids / pellets while I await my trisodium phosphate… I guess the interesting thing to me though is I’ve never had a reading below 0.02 for Phos on my Hanna ULR, so a bit puzzled how I landed here. Nitrates have steadily been 8+ the entire time, but I’m prepared to dose if needed. I have not opted to siphon anything, yet.

 

[vetteguy53081]

@vetteguy53081 appreciate the suggestions, I reduced lighting to 10% for today, dosed a small amount of H202 & added some MB7. Separately fed reef roids / pellets while I await my trisodium phosphate… I guess the interesting thing to me though is I’ve never had a reading below 0.02 for Phos on my Hanna ULR, so a bit puzzled how I landed here. Nitrates have steadily been 8+ the entire time, but I’m prepared to dose if needed. I have not opted to siphon anything, yet.

Generally when the numbers get that low, its because the dino is consuming your nutrients

 

[Nick711]

Summary of today:
Temp raised +1 degree (78)
nitrates 9.2 & phosphates 0.05
Continued normal fish feeding
Skimmer remains off
Blue Lights only @ 10% from 8-4
Dosed MB7 during day
Dosed live phyto at night
Dosed H202 at night
Siphoned sand bed through 1 micron filter sock (now the fun part to clean it. Current soaking in tap)

 

[driciladr]

I’m not a Dino expert but I’m fighting a different strain of them with foam floss in
my display. I had long stringy red bits all over (not cyan) and tested its O. Dino’s so they cling to the foam. I also installed a sterilizer and then each night I pull the floss cubes out with Dino’s all over it and don’t the let water drain out, I toss them soaked into a cup and rinse in the sink and replace back in the tank. May not work for your strain but maybe it will. I’m on day four and Dino’s are down to about 80% beat. These cubes looked fully red each night until day four! Now nearly empty! And my corals that were covered in red strings are coming back to life since strings stay on the foam not them.

 

[Lavey29]

I’m not a Dino expert but I’m fighting a different strain of them with foam floss in
my display. I had long stringy red bits all over (not cyan) and tested its O. Dino’s so they cling to the foam. I also installed a sterilizer and then each night I pull the floss cubes out with Dino’s all over it and don’t the let water drain out, I toss them soaked into a cup and rinse in the sink and replace back in the tank. May not work for your strain but maybe it will. I’m on day four and Dino’s are down to about 80% beat. These cubes looked fully red each night until day four! Now nearly empty! And my corals that were covered in red strings are coming back to life since strings stay on the foam not them.

For certain dinos that go into the water column overnight I've heard the floss can be effective but still need to correct the underlying condition causing your dinos.

 

[Nick711]

@driciladr - glad to hear you are making good progress & thanks for sharing! My Dino’s have predominantly been on the sand, but I’ve considered weighing down floss on the sand to see if I can pick any up that way or try as you have shown and use a baster to blow as much as I can into the water column . Right now what I’m doing seems to be working OK so will take it slow and see where I land.

 

[driciladr]

For certain dinos that go into the water column overnight I've heard the floss can be effective but still need to correct the underlying condition causing your dinos.

I’ve not find my reason yet - since I had nitrates 9.9 and point of sale .04

 

[driciladr]

I’ve not find my reason yet - since I had nitrates 9.9 and point of sale .04

"PO4" not Point of Sale lol. I work in food so my computer just assumed.

 

[Nick711]

To track progress, today:
Continued normal fish feeding (frozen + pellets)
Skimmer remains off
Resumed lighting schedule to incorporate other spectrums, but at overall lower intensity
Dosed MB7 during day
Dosed sodium silicate water glass during day (1ppm concentration)
Dosed live phyto shortly before lights off
Dosed H202 at night
Cleaned filter sock from siphoned sand (yuck)

Dino’s visible on sand (confirmed w another sample viewed under scope), but not seemingly too bad.

To be continued…

 

[DDenny]

Definitely following I’m fighting them as well. Still researching but mine look exactly like yours under microscope. Stay on the sand not much of anything on rocks.

 

[Nick711]

Update, 2/23:

Good news is that the Dino’s have significantly retreated and GHA / diatoms / film algae have started to take root again. This was achieved with 1) siphoning sand bed weekly (also poly filter weighted down over bad spots), 2) dosing silicate / MB7, 3) reducing light intensity / duration for several 3-5 day stretches, 4) adding copepods, 5) dosing phyto, 6) continuing frequent moderate feedings. I also have a shipment of AquaBiomics sand coming in next week.

Fish are all fine. Inverts and RFA are also all doing well. Sadly, it seems I have lost several coral (soft & LPS) as a result of this process.

I have not performed a water chance since late December, nor have I dosed any trace elements.

Nitrate / Phosphate has been on a consistent incline for the past month, and I’m now at the point they are the highest I’ve experienced in this tank, and I’m not sure if I should consider a water change or other export methods (skimmer is running 24/7).

Nitrates from Jan 18 to today) - 8.8 -> 9.2 -> 11.7 -> 13.0 -> 22.3
Phosphates from Jan 18 to today) - 0.03 -> .05 -> .07 -> .10 -> .20

 

[brandon429]

we can save your tank by undoing eutrophication

I would really like the job

can we do your system oppositely here? we'll get a result fast. it will look like the tanks from my prior results threads and I'd really like yours because it's on an invasion cycling challenge vs just being clean.

when you said 40 gallons my jaw clenched, I'd like that job. your tank will comply is the bet based on priors.

 

[brandon429]

you were never told that there's a certain size gallonage tank where you do not need to take months to gain control and losing some corals was not required. what you are running is what large tankers must do, because the systems are so large there's no other practical way

a 40 allows you handling options that are unique to nano reefs, and in that is your hidden win.

there is a way to clean your tank one time to make it stop misbehaving.

in about 4 hours after you start the job you'll be done.

I saw your thread a while back but let the others get a run at it first. the updates aren't acceptable because it seems a compromise is required, I'd like a shot. your updates will be much different after a proxy run from over here.

 

[DDenny]

Going to try one more thing and if that doesnt get them on the decline going to do a rip clean. Only have 3 nassarius snails in the sand so those will be easy to find and only 14 pounds or so or rocks. A few zoas on one rock. what worries me is my fish and them stressing out over all the movement.

 

[Garf]

we can save your tank by undoing eutrophication

I would really like the job

can we do your system oppositely here? we'll get a result fast. it will look like the tanks from my prior results threads and I'd really like yours because it's on an invasion cycling challenge vs just being clean.

when you said 40 gallons my jaw clenched, I'd like that job. your tank will comply is the bet based on priors.

What happens if you set this tank back by washing out the gains already made? Do you lose your bet?