Different protocols explained?

[Red2143]

It seems there are variations between the protocols used on this site, humble fish, Dr reef, etc. Can someone please explain the difference in beliefs? I'm not looking to start a heated debate but just understand different views so I can decide for myself.

 

[vetteguy53081]

It seems there are variations between the protocols used on this site, humble fish, Dr reef, etc. Can someone please explain the difference in beliefs? I'm not looking to start a heated debate but just understand different views so I can decide for myself.

Most are tried and tested methods and reason why it is not healthy to jump site to site. Right now you get 3 conflicting methods and go on three more and you then have 6. While research is a part of this hobby, you need to stick with the source you find reliable. It often puzzles me when people come on here and says person XXX says i should be doing this raising question, then why are you on R2R and questioning experienced aquarists?
Acclimation as an example, I like the bucket method going back to my LFS and one says drip method and another says equalize temp and good to go.
Videos rarely do anything for me as it is hard to watch a video with a guy showing his methods for dosing and addition of supplements when the viewer has a 5 gallon tank. His method may benefit a person with a 200-250 gallon tank but for sure not the one with a 50 gallon.
Ive been doing this 40 years and learned from " be careful what you read and be careful who gives you advice".
Agree this should be principle and not debate as many have tried and true methods while others. . . (well you know)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It seems there are variations between the protocols used on this site, humble fish, Dr reef, etc. Can someone please explain the difference in beliefs? I'm not looking to start a heated debate but just understand different views so I can decide for myself.

That’s a good example of a simple question with a complicated answer(grin). Quarantine is a compromise between expense (time, money, risk) and efficacy. In some special cases, you need to customize the protocol for a particular species, but the protocol we list and update here is a solid general protocol. I developed it during my career in public aquariums - THEN the Fish Medics and other members here have refined it to have a better focus on home aquariums. I think it’s the best process, but we continually update it as new information is developed.
Jay

 

[MnFish1]

It seems there are variations between the protocols used on this site, humble fish, Dr reef, etc. Can someone please explain the difference in beliefs? I'm not looking to start a heated debate but just understand different views so I can decide for myself.

There are also many people (on this site) who do not quarantine at all. IMHO - there is no 'right' and no 'wrong'.. Look at the source, decide which protocol you want to follow and follow it. The problem comes in Usually when people say I was doing x but ended up doing x +y for 1/2 the time. I would say consider the source. (This is not a slam against anyone or any other site). Consider the logic - and consider the types of places you're buying fish from.

 

[PotatoPig]

That’s a good example of a simple question with a complicated answer(grin). Quarantine is a compromise between expense (time, money, risk) and efficacy. In some special cases, you need to customize the protocol for a particular species, but the protocol we list and update here is a solid general protocol. I developed it during my career in public aquariums - THEN the Fish Medics and other members here have refined it to have a better focus on home aquariums. I think it’s the best process, but we continually update it as new information is developed.
Jay

Thank you for your time answering my questions over on the dedicated thread - a question I had about the current QT protocol vs the BRS one, but didn’t want to clog up the thread or risk injecting debate so perhaps this is a better place to ask…

The BRS one uses 14 days of copper vs 30. Is their lower timeframe because they’re basically running a quasi tank transfer method augmented with copper? Or is the extra time on your protocol the other “20” from their “80”? Or is this a difference of philosophy and risk tolerances?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for your time answering my questions over on the dedicated thread - a question I had about the current QT protocol vs the BRS one, but didn’t want to clog up the thread or risk injecting debate so perhaps this is a better place to ask…

The BRS one uses 14 days of copper vs 30. Is their lower timeframe because they’re basically running a quasi tank transfer method augmented with copper? Or is the extra time on your protocol the other “20” from their “80”? Or is this a difference of philosophy and risk tolerances?

Tough to say - I don't know their rational for saying that. With coppersafe or copper power, there is no reason not to go 30 days. With ionic copper, such as copper sulfate/citric acid or Cupramine, the higher toxicity indicates a shorter time frame is warranted.

Jay

 

[Red2143]

Am I correct that the reef2reef protocol does not use metroplex or general cure? Is the metroplex not needed and the prazipro a replacement for general cure? Just trying to understand it all.

 

[MnFish1]

Am I correct that the reef2reef protocol does not use metroplex or general cure? Is the metroplex not needed and the prazipro a replacement for general cure? Just trying to understand it all.

General cure contains Metronidazole and praziquantel. So - there would be no reason for both. Metronidazole is somewhat more difficult to adequately dose.

 

[EricR]

I hate to bring up Hybrid Tank Transfer Method (HTTM) but since you mentioned Humblefish:
It is another option. (I'll stay out of pros/cons discussions)
Not popular on this site, from what I can tell.
*only used it on 3 fish but all successful for me

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I hate to bring up Hybrid Tank Transfer Method (HTTM) but since you mentioned Humblefish:
It is another option. (I'll stay out of pros/cons discussions)
Not popular on this site, from what I can tell.
*only used it on 3 fish but all successful for me

TTM doesn’t work for velvet or flukes unless you go with the modified method, and then it still falls a bit short. The extra handling really stressses the fish out at a time they really need time to settle in and start eating well. Finally, almost all TTM set ups lack lateral viewing of the fish - never do that with new fish, you miss too many issues.
Jay

 

[EricR]

TTM doesn’t work for velvet or flukes unless you go with the modified method, and then it still falls a bit short. The extra handling really stressses the fish out at a time they really need time to settle in and start eating well. Finally, almost all TTM set ups lack lateral viewing of the fish - never do that with new fish, you miss too many issues.
Jay

Thanks, Jay.

I specifically mentioned "Hybrid" TTM which incorporates two, separate, 150 ppm H2O2 baths 6 days apart.
My understanding was that handled velvet and potentially flukes.

If you say it doesn't, then I have to defer to your knowledge and experience there, obviously.

*I don't get what you mean by, "lack lateral viewing of fish" since my HTTM setups would allow same visibility to fish as any medicated QT I would do.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks, Jay.

I specifically mentioned "Hybrid" TTM which incorporates two, separate, 150 ppm H2O2 baths 6 days apart.
My understanding was that handled velvet and potentially flukes.

If you say it doesn't, then I have to defer to your knowledge and experience there, obviously.

*I don't get what you mean by, "lack lateral viewing of fish" since my HTTM setups would allow same visibility to fish as any medicated QT I would do.

Many people run TTM in buckets or other opaque containers - that is grave error. If you do it in clear tanks, that’s better. I still don’t like the extra handling of the fish.
Peroxide doesn’t kill Neobenedenia eggs and they are sticky, so they go right through TTM, it’s been demonstrated that a single egg can restart an infection.
Peroxide has been shown to kill Amyloodinium, so that disease should be managed ok.
Jay

 

[SoFlo Reef]

Thank you for your time answering my questions over on the dedicated thread - a question I had about the current QT protocol vs the BRS one, but didn’t want to clog up the thread or risk injecting debate so perhaps this is a better place to ask…

The BRS one uses 14 days of copper vs 30. Is their lower timeframe because they’re basically running a quasi tank transfer method augmented with copper? Or is the extra time on your protocol the other “20” from their “80”? Or is this a difference of philosophy and risk tolerances?

It really only takes around 9 days to rid a fish of ich using copper, as that is the longest the trophont stage lasts (typically only a few days). 14 days is often used to be safe, and is sufficient as long as the fish is transferred to a new tank afterward. If the fish is staying in the same tank, 30 days is required as you need to ensure any encysted tomonts are killed as well. I personally quarantine in copper for 12 days (copper power) then transfer to a clean tank and have never had any issues. IMO minimizing the length of time the fish stays in copper is always a good idea, and I have seen better outcomes using 12-14 days vs 30.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It really only takes around 9 days to rid a fish of ich using copper, as that is the longest the trophont stage lasts (typically only a few days). 14 days is often used to be safe, and is sufficient as long as the fish is transferred to a new tank afterward. If the fish is staying in the same tank, 30 days is required as you need to ensure any encysted tomonts are killed as well. I personally quarantine in copper for 12 days (copper power) then transfer to a clean tank and have never had any issues. IMO minimizing the length of time the fish stays in copper is always a good idea, and I have seen better outcomes using 12-14 days vs 30.

That really isn’t long enough to effect a complete cure in every instance. Since copper doesn’t kill the tomonts or trophonts, if you miss them, the disease will start again. Moving the fish out removes some of the risk, but not all.
The history is that ionic copper was so toxic that it was worth the risk getting the fish out of copper ASAP. With amine bonded coppers, as mild as they are, there isn’t a risk, so why take the chance?
Then, pulling the fish out at 14 days messes up the fluke treatment….just not a good idea.
Jay

 

[SoFlo Reef]

That really isn’t long enough to effect a complete cure in every instance. Since copper doesn’t kill the tomonts or trophonts, if you miss them, the disease will start again. Moving the fish out removes some of the risk, but not all.
The history is that ionic copper was so toxic that it was worth the risk getting the fish out of copper ASAP. With amine bonded coppers, as mild as they are, there isn’t a risk, so why take the chance?
Then, pulling the fish out at 14 days messes up the fluke treatment….just not a good idea.
Jay

I appreciate the reply, I should have clarified, in my personal QT protocol copper is only to treat ich/velvet, I treat separately for flukes (prazi) and other ailments. I'm curious where you see the possibility of failure with that protocol, or if you have personal experience with it failing. I don't recall the exact study, but remember reading that the longest ich trophonts had been recorded feeding on fish was 9 days, and I believe that was at cooler than reef tank temps. As long as copper is kept at therapeutic levels, once all trophonts have fallen off the fish should be ich free, no? After the copper I catch the fish with a strainer and transfer to a clean observation tank

I guess I am more cautious because I have dealt with a number of sensitive species, things like leopard wrasses, certain centropyge angels etc. that can seem to turn quickly in quarantine, and for those species (even with chelated copper) minimizing their exposure time seems to increase chances of success IME.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I appreciate the reply, I should have clarified, in my personal QT protocol copper is only to treat ich/velvet, I treat separately for flukes (prazi) and other ailments. I'm curious where you see the possibility of failure with that protocol, or if you have personal experience with it failing. I don't recall the exact study, but remember reading that the longest ich trophonts had been recorded feeding on fish was 9 days, and I believe that was at cooler than reef tank temps. As long as copper is kept at therapeutic levels, once all trophonts have fallen off the fish should be ich free, no? After the copper I catch the fish with a strainer and transfer to a clean observation tank

I guess I am more cautious because I have dealt with a number of sensitive species, things like leopard wrasses, certain centropyge angels etc. that can seem to turn quickly in quarantine, and for those species (even with chelated copper) minimizing their exposure time seems to increase chances of success IME.

Coppersafe is slow to cure, there can be trophonts on a fish that you can’t see….that extends the time. Then, there is always some risk of moving tomonts over any time something “wet” is moved from tank to tank. Is it a great risk? Probably not, but we see enough failures to know that the life cycle of ich is not as cut and dry as people believe - lots of slop in the timing, thus best practice is to go 30 days.
If the fish isn’t going right into the DT, but rather, just out of copper and into a secondary tank for fluke treatment, then 21 days is fine, or even 14 days after the last trophonts were seen.
Jay