CP in QT - Biofiltration

[sawrip]

I currently have a Maroon Clown, Jewel Puffer and Rhinopias in my QT setup.

Unfortunately the clown is showing signs of ich it's also appeared on my puffers tail. I have medical grade CP tablets, should I remove the small amount of biomedia from the internal filter before commencing treatment? I just worry with the three of them in a 15 gallon tank about ammonia spikes.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That isn't a really good idea. If the fish have a protozoan infections and if you pull some media prior to adding chloroquine (in anticipation of the ammonia spike) that media will have the possibility of carrying some disease propagules with it. Then, if you add the media back to the tank, you may well reinfect the fish.
Some people see a rise in ammonia with chloroquine, others don't - it has to do with the tank's conditions. Tanks with a lot of algae and micro fauna seem to have more of an ammonia rise than do quarantine tanks with just a biofilter.
Here is an article I wrote on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

As a side note - do you have any concerns about mixing those three fish? Puffers can be nippy, and if either the puffer or clown is small, the Rhino could eat them. FWIW: I always keep Rhinopias in a singleton tank - they are pricey, but delicate....

Also, you want to confirm that your fish indeed have ich, some fish develop random white spots that don't require treatment.


Jay

 

[sawrip]

That isn't a really good idea. If the fish have a protozoan infections and if you pull some media prior to adding chloroquine (in anticipation of the ammonia spike) that media will have the possibility of carrying some disease propagules with it. Then, if you add the media back to the tank, you may well reinfect the fish.
Some people see a rise in ammonia with chloroquine, others don't - it has to do with the tank's conditions. Tanks with a lot of algae and micro fauna seem to have more of an ammonia rise than do quarantine tanks with just a biofilter.
Here is an article I wrote on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

As a side note - do you have any concerns about mixing those three fish? Puffers can be nippy, and if either the puffer or clown is small, the Rhino could eat them. FWIW: I always keep Rhinopias in a singleton tank - they are pricey, but delicate....

Also, you want to confirm that your fish indeed have ich, some fish develop random white spots that don't require treatment.


Jay

That isn't a really good idea. If the fish have a protozoan infections and if you pull some media prior to adding chloroquine (in anticipation of the ammonia spike) that media will have the possibility of carrying some disease propagules with it. Then, if you add the media back to the tank, you may well reinfect the fish.
Some people see a rise in ammonia with chloroquine, others don't - it has to do with the tank's conditions. Tanks with a lot of algae and micro fauna seem to have more of an ammonia rise than do quarantine tanks with just a biofilter.
Here is an article I wrote on chloroquine:

Aquarium Fish: Chloroquine: A “New” Drug for Treating Fish Diseases

While not a panacea or miracle drug, chloroquine is experiencing resurgence in popularity for use in fish-only aquariums and quarantine systems to treat a variety of problems ranging from Cryptocaryon to Aiptasia anemone infestations.

reefs.com

As a side note - do you have any concerns about mixing those three fish? Puffers can be nippy, and if either the puffer or clown is small, the Rhino could eat them. FWIW: I always keep Rhinopias in a singleton tank - they are pricey, but delicate....

Also, you want to confirm that your fish indeed have ich, some fish develop random white spots that don't require treatment.


Jay

The tank is a quarantine setup, bare bottom and just has a small Fluval internal filter with biomedia in it. I would throw the media away when taken out due to cross contamination so no risk of reintroducing it. My preference would be to keep it in but worried it would degrade the CP.

I am fairly certain it's ich, but will try and get a video / image, I had posted previously about having to remove these fish from the DT due to them struggling with hypo, now removed and raised sg in QT - it's reappeared.

I have no concerns about mixing these fish, I keep a tank of dwarf lions / scorps and the clownfish is a large maroon female and the puffer is too large with no nibble interests so far, with the exception of the Rhinopias they have all been together in my DT for many months before this ich outbreak.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The tank is a quarantine setup, bare bottom and just has a small Fluval internal filter with biomedia in it. I would throw the media away when taken out due to cross contamination so no risk of reintroducing it. My preference would be to keep it in but worried it would degrade the CP.

I am fairly certain it's ich, but will try and get a video / image, I had posted previously about having to remove these fish from the DT due to them struggling with hypo, now removed and raised sg in QT - it's reappeared.

I have no concerns about mixing these fish, I keep a tank of dwarf lions / scorps and the clownfish is a large maroon female and the puffer is too large with no nibble interests so far, with the exception of the Rhinopias they have all been together in my DT for many months before this ich outbreak.

Oh - you are worried about the nitrifiers degrading the chloroquine, I'm more worried about the ammonia spikes so often seen after dosing chloroquine. Yes, the Shedd Aquarium did a study that discovered that heterotrophic bacteria degrades chloroquine, just like was previously learned about praziquantel. However, the degradation takes time, and unless you have a QT that is getting repeat doses of chloroquine, it isn't too much of an issue....the potential ammonia spike is more serious.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

Oh - you are worried about the nitrifiers degrading the chloroquine, I'm more worried about the ammonia spikes so often seen after dosing chloroquine. Yes, the Shedd Aquarium did a study that discovered that heterotrophic bacteria degrades chloroquine, just like was previously learned about praziquantel. However, the degradation takes time, and unless you have a QT that is getting repeat doses of chloroquine, it isn't too much of an issue....the potential ammonia spike is more serious.

Jay

Thanks, I will have a read of the article you have provided. I have an image of the puffer currently, it's just a single spot at present.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks, I will have a read of the article you have provided. I have an image of the puffer currently, it's just a single spot at present.

I can't see the spot. With ich, the spots will come and go, and change location every few days. You might want to prepare for treatment, but then not pull the trigger on it until you have a confirmed case.

Jay

 

[sawrip]

I can't see the spot. With ich, the spots will come and go, and change location every few days. You might want to prepare for treatment, but then not pull the trigger on it until you have a confirmed case.

Jay

The spots on the tip of the lower anal fin, I'm definitely going to monitor for the short term. My main tank has done eight weeks at full hypo and is now slowly being raised to normal sg, all lions and scorps look good.

This then just leaves me with how to deal with this QT, if indeed ich is present. If so I believe my best options for the Puffer, Clown and Rhinopias would be either:
TTM - complete this and move back to display, I am worried about stress and ammonia build up
CP - simple to administer and one shot done, I am really worried about my beautiful Rhinopias with it though
Cooper - Not an option due to toxicity with puffers and Rhinopias, plus I don't have a Hanna checker for it
Hyposalinity - have to setup an ato and will take many weeks, QT water volumes makes sg swings more likely

Can I ask what you would go for Jay if it turns out to be ich in the QT? The Rhinopias is my biggest concern, I'd be devestated if any treatment I used ended up in his demise.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The spots on the tip of the lower anal fin, I'm definitely going to monitor for the short term. My main tank has done eight weeks at full hypo and is now slowly being raised to normal sg, all lions and scorps look good.

This then just leaves me with how to deal with this QT, if indeed ich is present. If so I believe my best options for the Puffer, Clown and Rhinopias would be either:
TTM - complete this and move back to display, I am worried about stress and ammonia build up
CP - simple to administer and one shot done, I am really worried about my beautiful Rhinopias with it though
Cooper - Not an option due to toxicity with puffers and Rhinopias, plus I don't have a Hanna checker for it
Hyposalinity - have to setup an ato and will take many weeks, QT water volumes makes sg swings more likely

Can I ask what you would go for Jay if it turns out to be ich in the QT? The Rhinopias is my biggest concern, I'd be devestated if any treatment I used ended up in his demise.

View attachment 3095496

I see it now. Looks pretty large to be ich, but size is relative, and if the puffer is small?
Coppersafe with a Hanna checker would work fine, minimal toxicity with that product. I’ve not run Rhinopis through hypo, not sure how it would react. I don’t like TTM due to stress and poor results. I’ve had mysterious toxic reactions with lionfish and wrasses with chloroquine at 20 mg/l, but I’ve also had it not work well on ich at the safer, lower dose of 12 mg/l.
Jay

 

[sawrip]

I see it now. Looks pretty large to be ich, but size is relative, and if the puffer is small?
Coppersafe with a Hanna checker would work fine, minimal toxicity with that product. I’ve not run Rhinopis through hypo, not sure how it would react. I don’t like TTM due to stress and poor results. I’ve had mysterious toxic reactions with lionfish and wrasses with chloroquine at 20 mg/l, but I’ve also had it not work well on ich at the safer, lower dose of 12 mg/l.
Jay

Yes it does seem rather large but the puffer isn't massive. I'll monitor as it will be easy to see if it drops off or spreads onto the Maroon Clown.

Thanks for the TTM viewpoint, fish overnight for weeks in plastic boxes has me worried - too much to worry about.

So over here I can source Copper Power and can obtain a Hanna checker if needed, would you say this is the safest route to go down? What level would you run at and for how long, but would you ramp it up slowly?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes it does seem rather large but the puffer isn't massive. I'll monitor as it will be easy to see if it drops off or spreads onto the Maroon Clown.

Thanks for the TTM viewpoint, fish overnight for weeks in plastic boxes has me worried - too much to worry about.

So over here I can source Copper Power and can obtain a Hanna checker if needed, would you say this is the safest route to go down? What level would you run at and for how long, but would you ramp it up slowly?

Sorry, I just don’t a big data set for coppersafe or chloroquine on Rhinopias, and I don’t want to guess. I usually keep them as singletons and only use praziquantel. They are tricky if they get ich though, tough to see on them.

Jay