Could the lack of Trace Elements in my salt mix be a problem?

[mboley]

I just got my first ICP test back and was surprised to see "Non Detectable" levels of Zinc, Nickel, Cobalt, Chromium, Iron, Manganese, and Selenium. And a barely detectable level of Iodine.

These low levels are surprising to me especially because I've stepped up my water changes. I've done six changes over the past three months, four of them at 25%. The other two at 12 and 30%. Reason being I'm losing too many corals. I did something stupid and had a light shock event that caused some loses; did the lack of elements make that worse? Tank is now ten months old.

If my Fritz RPM Salt mix had these trace elements how in the heck are these elements undetectable after multiple water changes?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, several reasons. First, the ICP method you used may not be able to detect natural levels. Second, they are sometimes rapidly depleted, especially iron and manganese.

Lack of them by ICP does not mean you need more, but you might. Experimenting with a trace element additive such as Tropic Marin A and K might be worthwhile.

 

[Tavero]

I just got my first ICP test back and was surprised to see "Non Detectable" levels of Zinc, Nickel, Cobalt, Chromium, Iron, Manganese, and Selenium. And a barely detectable level of Iodine.

These low levels are surprising to me especially because I've stepped up my water changes. I've done six changes over the past three months, four of them at 25%. The other two at 12 and 30%. Reason being I'm losing too many corals. I did something stupid and had a light shock event that caused some loses; did the lack of elements make that worse? Tank is now ten months old.

If my Fritz RPM Salt mix had these trace elements how in the heck are these elements undetectable after multiple water changes?

A 25% water change only replenishes 25% trace elements. If they aren't detectable before that, they will barely detectable afterwards. In a tank with fast growing corals, trace elements can only be replenished by dosing them imho.

 

[mboley]

Well, several reasons. First, the ICP method you used may not be able to detect natural levels. Second, they are sometimes rapidly depleted, especially iron and manganese.

Lack of them by ICP does not mean you need more, but you might. Experimenting with a trace element additive such as Tropic Marin A and K might be worthwhile.

I used Fuana Marin; my impression is that is a good one? I just start using TM A & K last night.

I do have some powdered Iron and Maganese; should I dose those up to a specific level? I know how to use Rotala Butterfly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I used Fuana Marin; my impression is that is a good one? I just start using TM A & K last night.

I do have some powdered Iron and Maganese; should I dose those up to a specific level? I know how to use Rotala Butterfly.

Can you post the actual ICP results?

 

[mboley]

Can you post the actual ICP results?

Thanks Randy, I really appreciate the help.

 

[mboley]

Another Revelation to me was what junk a lot of test kits are. Bought that $150 Milwaukie unit for Salinity and have been at 1.026 constantly and the ICP says 33.8.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Fanua Marin uses a technique called ICP-OES, which detects elements in the plasma by the light they emit. It cannot detect as low of levels of many trace elements as can ICP-MS, which detects elements in the plasma by their charge to mass ratio.

Assuming all the FM data is correct, here's my recommendation:

1. Raise salinity to 35 ppt.

2. experiment with a trace element mix such as Tropic Marin A and K and watch to see if anything in the tank visibly improves or not. if not, no need to keep going. If it does, then keep using it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Another Revelation to me was what junk a lot of test kits are. Bought that $150 Milwaukie unit for Salinity and have been at 1.026 constantly and the ICP says 1.022.

It could be yours is off, or theirs. I'd test with a standard before assuming it is your device.

 

[mboley]

Fanua Marin uses a technique called ICP-OES, which detects elements in the plasma by the light they emit. It cannot detect as low of levels of many trace elements as can ICP-MS, which detects elements in the plasma by their charge to mass ratio.

Assuming all the FM data is correct, here's my recommendation:

1. Raise salinity to 35 ppt.

2. experiment with a trace element mix such as Tropic Marin A and K and watch to see if anything in the tank visibly improves or not. if not, no need to keep going. If it does, then keep using it.

Thanks again Randy, can I ask you about what I suspect may have also caused me some coral deaths?

In June I treated the tank with Fluconozol for Byprosis. It wasn't that bad but I wanted to nip it at the bud.

I did a full dose even though I didn't have that much Byprosis. Did I overdose perhaps? I had the flesh on a Wilsoni shedding off for example.

 

[SliceGolfer]

Another Revelation to me was what junk a lot of test kits are. Bought that $150 Milwaukie unit for Salinity and have been at 1.026 constantly and the ICP says 33.8.

I calibrate mine often and I make sure the temperature reads 78 degrees before testing. This has provided very consistent results.

Note the range of accuracy expected for the device:

 

[rtparty]

Another Revelation to me was what junk a lot of test kits are. Bought that $150 Milwaukie unit for Salinity and have been at 1.026 constantly and the ICP says 33.8.

1.026 is 35ppt. ICP measured yours at 33.8 which is well within the margin of error for the Milwaukee (and most salinity devices to be honest.)

Nothing in the tank is dying because your salinity is off by 1ppt from “ideal”

You’re also assuming the FM salinity is correct. That’s a bold assumption IMO. Most ICP testing services aren’t great.

 

[mboley]

I calibrate mine often and I make sure the temperature reads 78 degrees before testing. This has provided very consistent results.

Note the range of accuracy expected for the device:

I calibrate it with Distilled water to 1everytime before measuring, as per the instructions. Do you do something different? Didn't know about the temp, thanks for that and the range clarification. In hindsight, the ICP reading was just 1.2 ppt under my 1.026 test reading.

 

[mboley]

1.026 is 35ppt. ICP measured yours at 33.8 which is well within the margin of error for the Milwaukee (and most salinity devices to be honest.)

Nothing in the tank is dying because your salinity is off by 1ppt from “ideal”

You’re also assuming the FM salinity is correct. That’s a bold assumption IMO. Most ICP testing services aren’t great.

Thanks. My rant on salinity test was unjustified and I didn't think it was the cause.

I think it was me messing around the my light fixture more than anything. Stupid mistake on my part. I've been doing this off and on for 30 years, this hobby can humble you and right now I am.

 

[Reefahholic]

Fanua Marin uses a technique called ICP-OES

It cannot detect as low of levels of many trace elements as can ICP-MS

Bingo!

 

[Reefahholic]

I just got my first ICP test back and was surprised to see "Non Detectable" levels of Zinc, Nickel, Cobalt, Chromium, Iron, Manganese, and Selenium. And a barely detectable level of Iodine.

This is quite common. Fe and Mn do have slightly better sensitivity than the others, but are typically depleted if not supplemented. Cr, Zn, and Ni are usually very low also if not supplemented and usually don’t show up on OES unless 2-3 ug/L or show up as noise. Co has a little better sensitivity and sometimes shows up, but can’t be trusted. Most are probably there, but in the .05-0.15 range which is very low and needing supplemental dosing. Also, Se will not even become detectable on OES until after about 10 ug/L.

Grab a OCEAMO ICP-MS, and see all your elements. Typically detection limits for almost all elements are 0.05 ug/L or better. Not that we care about uranium much, but MS can get down to 0.001 ug/L. It’s very sensitive.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks again Randy, can I ask you about what I suspect may have also caused me some coral deaths?

In June I treated the tank with Fluconozol for Byprosis. It wasn't that bad but I wanted to nip it at the bud.

I did a full dose even though I didn't have that much Byprosis. Did I overdose perhaps? I had the flesh on a Wilsoni shedding off for example.

I'm not really sure what side effects there may be from fluconazole treatments. It's not something I've looked into very much.

 

[mboley]

This is quite common. Fe and Mn do have slightly better sensitivity than the others, but are typically depleted if not supplemented. Cr, Zn, and Ni are usually very low also if not supplemented and usually don’t show up on OES unless 2-3 ug/L or show up as noise. Co has a little better sensitivity and sometimes shows up, but can’t be trusted. Most are probably there, but in the .05-0.15 range which is very low and needing supplemental dosing. Also, Se will not even become detectable on OES until after about 10 ug/L.

Grab a OCEAMO ICP-MS, and see all your elements. Typically detection limits for almost all elements are 0.05 ug/L or better. Not that we care about uranium much, but MS can get down to 0.001 ug/L.

Thanks Reefaholic,

Some other discrepancies on my tests are for Alk, Calc, and Mag. I tested the same day I sent in my ICP test with Salifert kits. In all three cases, the ICP showed higher levels.

Salifert Alkalinity- 9.1. ICP- 9.6

Salifert Calc- 410. ICP- 445

Salifert Mag-1320. ICP- 1448

All three higher on the ICP. Which test results would you assume are correct? I went ahead and turned down my doses just a little.

 

[rtparty]

Thanks Reefaholic,

Some other discrepancies on my tests are for Alk, Calc, and Mag. I tested the same day I sent in my ICP test with Salifert kits. In all three cases, the ICP showed higher levels.

Salifert Alkalinity- 9.1. ICP- 9.6

Salifert Calc- 410. ICP- 445

Salifert Mag-1320. ICP- 1448

All three higher on the ICP. Which test results would you assume are correct? I went ahead and turned down my doses just a little.

Alk and calcium are within margin of error or close enough. Magnesium is outside the margin of error but not a big deal in any way.

Use your testing results to tune in dosing since you can easily test at home and keep things consistent. If the numbers aren’t spot on accurate, it’s not a big deal.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree. Every value mentioned is fine.