Complete Die Off in Reef Tank

[kaijor]

I own a 32 Biocube that has been running for over 3-4 months. I added fish about 2 months ago after the tank had fully cycled. The tank has been running quite smoothly with not many issues at all. This is why the die off of my fish this morning came as such a surprise. All the invertebrates and crabs seem fine.

Bio-load:
Snails: ~20
Hermit Crab: ~4
Sea Urchin: 1
Brittle Starfish: 1
Clownfish: 2
Royal Gamma: 1
Lawnmower Benny: 1
Corals: 10

Here are my water parameters (tested by my LFS):
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 77.6 (no history of a temperature spike or anything based on my sensor)
Ammonia: 0.1 (I think because the fish were dead for a couple of hours in the tank)
Nitrate: 0
Calcium: 457
Phosphate: 0.1
Alkalinity: 146
PH: 7.6
Magnesium: 1380
Nitrite: 0.3

The day before I did a huge water/tank clean where I cleaned the rocks with hydrogen peroxide to remove green hair algae. I had to remove many of the rocks from the aquarium in order to do this. I only left them out for an hour or two. Unfortunately, this morning I woke up and all my fish are dead. Honestly, I'm leaning towards ammonia poisoning due or bacteria bloom due to the sand bed being disrupted, but I'm not entirely sure. The reason for this is that I noticed the water being a bit cloudy after everything was cleaned. It's still a bit cloudy actually. I'm wondering what I could've done different to prevent this from happening in the future and to figure out what possibly happened.

 

[dstockwell]

never-mind, i was wrong

 

[Andresnyc93]

It sounds like you moved too much of the aquascape out. When the tank is still very young and going through the ugly stage stability is your best friend because bacteria is still colonizing, any major changes can cause a major problem and also the bacteria bloom from stirring up the sandbed could’ve depleted O2.
Next time do it in phases, remove only 1/3 of rockwork every 2 weeks and re-add some sort of bacteria cleaner (Microbacter Clean) so you can keep dealing with the GHA in a more controlled scenario.

 

[Dburr1014]

I own a 32 Biocube that has been running for over 3-4 months. I added fish about 2 months ago after the tank had fully cycled. The tank has been running quite smoothly with not many issues at all. This is why the die off of my fish this morning came as such a surprise. All the invertebrates and crabs seem fine.

Bio-load:
Snails: ~20
Hermit Crab: ~4
Sea Urchin: 1
Brittle Starfish: 1
Clownfish: 2
Royal Gamma: 1
Lawnmower Benny: 1
Corals: 10

Here are my water parameters (tested by my LFS):
Salinity: 1.025
Temperature: 77.6 (no history of a temperature spike or anything based on my sensor)
Ammonia: 0.1 (I think because the fish were dead for a couple of hours in the tank)
Nitrate: 0
Calcium: 457
Phosphate: 0.1
Alkalinity: 146
PH: 7.6
Magnesium: 1380
Nitrite: 0.3

The day before I did a huge water/tank clean where I cleaned the rocks with hydrogen peroxide to remove green hair algae. I had to remove many of the rocks from the aquarium in order to do this. I only left them out for an hour or two. Unfortunately, this morning I woke up and all my fish are dead. Honestly, I'm leaning towards ammonia poisoning due or bacteria bloom due to the sand bed being disrupted, but I'm not entirely sure. The reason for this is that I noticed the water being a bit cloudy after everything was cleaned. It's still a bit cloudy actually. I'm wondering what I could've done different to prevent this from happening in the future and to figure out what possibly happened.

Oh sorry op.
You took the rocks out for 2 hours??

 

[vaguelyreeflike]

The cleaning of the rocks almost 100% killed the bacteria, hydrogen peroxide should be used as a spot clean inside the tank not as a dip for a live rock unfortunately.
Algae issues should almost always be tackled from the base issue first, hydrogen peroxide is a temporary solution anyways and you will still see algae growth.
Live rock can stay out of water as long as its relatively damp and humid, being held in a bucket or bag while out of water is best to trap moisture.

For the crashed cycle, add biological bacteria via something like stability, bactergen etc, and you could add seachem prime to temporarily detoxify the ammonia/nitrite levels.

for the algae issues in the future, look at your light schedules, phosphate and nitrate levels, and other filtration options like macroalgae/refugiums to prevent algae.

Im sorry for your losses though, die offs aren’t easy to go through both for the heart and the wallet

 

[Mikey-D]

Im still learning so please excuse this not as advice but a question more or less.

Your levels should be around.... Alk 8-12dkh, Phosephate 0 - .05ppm and PH 8 - 8.4; No?

 

[brandon429]

all disease preps were skipped, we expect total wipeouts like this in 80% of tanks within 8 mos of setup, who do no preps

tank cleaning didn't do it

uncycling didnt do it

nitrite sure didnt ever do it

See Jays disease forum for what it means when inverts live and only fish die, rapidly

you have the easiest skip disease consequence to dose after 5 mins reading spent in the stickies in the disease forum.

also, post a full tank shot for other supporting details that your cycle did not break.

 

[brandon429]

none of your testing matters at this point, you can see all your stock is fine other than those receptive to fish disease. simply stop testing for ammonia and nitrite, remove any dead fish, fallow your tank for 3 mos the right way, not the quick way, and then add in only prepped fish next round/for the win.

 

[brandon429]

*the part you need to read is biosecurity, adding anything wet that isn't prepped

like urchins or clean up crews or coral frags, if it's wet its a possible vector for disease. I can see you had basic quarantine going, nice job there (prior posts mention qt) have you fallowed out all added items?

that would mean you built your full reef first, left out fish, then added them 3 mos after the last coral frag or snail

most don't do that in the first few mos, they're adding literally everything over and over breaking the controls each time

 

[kaijor]

none of your testing matters at this point, you can see all your stock is fine other than those receptive to fish disease. simply stop testing for ammonia and nitrite, remove any dead fish, fallow your tank for 3 mos the right way, not the quick way, and then add in only prepped fish next round/for the win.

Sorry Brandon, what do you mean by fallow my tank? I'll take a look at that thread you mentioned as well. Thank you.

 

[brandon429]

Keeping a disease free tank

Looking for some of your opinions. So far I have a new 200 gallon tank, setup with dry bleached rock and turbostart. So far everything is going great. I have a Bristletooth tang, 2 clowns, and a firefish. As well as a bucnh of snails and a conch. I purchased my fish through Dr. Reef as they...

www.reef2reef.com

check that guy out

it's almost obsessive-compulsive the steps they outline in that post to prevent as much disease inputting as possible

but then again so were covid care routines at the hospital I visited last year...all manner of steps and obsessive repeats and separation events.

unfortunately fish from pet stores are this jacked up nowadays man/if the 2000s were like this nobody would have liked the hobby as much. this is a recent change, in the last 10 years or so/this disease trending to the tune of 80% impacts one way or another expected from skipping preps.



fallow: removing fish from a reef for X number of days (there are long and short fallow options) so that disease components starve in their presence.

*anything wet from a tank with disease potentially carries these components back into the reef/biosecurity.

 

[Dburr1014]

Sorry Brandon, what do you mean by fallow my tank? I'll take a look at that thread you mentioned as well. Thank you.

Fallow means no fish in the tank. 3 months. Then you add fish AFTER quarantine process.

 

[kaijor]

Keeping a disease free tank

Looking for some of your opinions. So far I have a new 200 gallon tank, setup with dry bleached rock and turbostart. So far everything is going great. I have a Bristletooth tang, 2 clowns, and a firefish. As well as a bucnh of snails and a conch. I purchased my fish through Dr. Reef as they...

www.reef2reef.com

check that guy out



fallow: removing fish from a reef for X number of days (there are long and short fallow options) so that disease components starve in their presence.

*anything wet from a tank with disease potentially carries these components back into the reef/biosecurity.

I'll take a read, thank you. I think that I may have jumped the gun on adding fish. I added them within at least the first month. I'll take the full 3 months this time and wait.

 

[kaijor]

Sorry, just to add, I also bought my fish from Dr. Reef as well which I think gave me a false sense of security.

 

[brandon429]

*his fish are great

its the added urchin, starfish, coral frags, clean up crew crabs, anything wet after the fish went in that were the biosecurity risk. you did very well sourcing from him, I'd repeat that.

**the fact you made that much effort to get qt fish is really rate standout efforts.

You should not feel bad about it at all, reason why:

this is inside knowledge. You only get this from forums, it's not part of ANY material posted about cycling in all reefing, because all old/unupdated cycling info is designed to scare you that your cycle is broken (the effect is, you buy cycling reinforcements)

you have an entire, decades-long sales industry withholding the required training to assess today's fish loss trends, it's not your fault. If they complied with updated cycling science, I'd have nothing to rail on them about for 39 pages in our false stuck cycle thread. When a reef tank runs three months, the cycle is never in doubt, not ever, not ever. you can't get three months on a broke cycle, and cycles can't undo after three months, these are the enduring rules such that we went right to disease management knowing only the age of your tank

*stray voltage would have killed your cuc, disease is where all the research indicates here.

no cycle has ever broken in the history of reefing. I've seen folks opine for 9 straight pages on broken cycles using non digital gear, but never with a seneye that's for sure. cycling can never be an issue in a 3 mos old reef stocked and running. hope that helps in future assessments

 

[kaijor]

*his fish are great

its the added urchin, starfish, coral frags, clean up crew crabs, anything wet after the fish went in that were the biosecurity risk. you did very well sourcing from him, I'd repeat that.

**the fact you made that much effort to get qt fish is really rate standout efforts.

You should not feel bad about it at all, reason why:

this is inside knowledge. You only get this from forums, it's not part of ANY material posted about cycling in all reefing, because all old/unupdated cycling info is designed to scare you that your cycle is broken (the effect is, you buy cycling reinforcements)

you have an entire, decades-long sales industry withholding the required training to assess today's fish loss trends, it's not your fault. If they complied with updated cycling science, I'd have nothing to rail on them about for 39 pages in our false stuck cycle thread. When a reef tank runs three months, the cycle is never in doubt, not ever, not ever. you can't get three months on a broke cycle, and cycles can't undo after three months, these are the enduring rules such that we went right to disease management knowing only the age of your tank

*stray voltage would have killed your cuc, disease is where all the research indicates here.

no cycle has ever broken in the history of reefing. I've seen folks opine for 9 straight pages on broken cycles using non digital gear, but never with a seneye that's for sure. cycling can never be an issue in a 3 mos old reef stocked and running. hope that helps in future assessments

Thanks! I've been trying to do the right thing when it comes to quarantining and the like. I do have some more to learn, obviously.

I did have a clarifying question based on the forum post you sent. I just read it. Is the idea that I keep the tank (DT) the way it is for 3 months, and not add anything to tank. If I do want to add a coral frag or CUC, I should quarantine the frag/CUC in a separate tank for 45 days then put it in the DT? Or does the fallow period reset as soon as I put anything wet into the DT tank despite whether it has been quarantined or not?

 

[reef_1]

For me your values doesnt make sense.

Is the 0.1 ammonia total ammonia or free ammonia (by seachem badge). 0.1 total ammonia doesnt kill any fish.

If you killed your biofilter it should be much more than 0.1 total.

If you still have a working biofilter then your nitrates can't be zero with a previous bigger ammonia spike.

So values dont make sense to me.

Did you also make a big water change after cleaning the rocks?

How is your aeration, do you have a skimmer or airstone running?

Did you have anything on rocks that could be toxic upon death, any corals anything that you coulve killed with h2o2?

Any visible signs on the dead fish, like white layer or white dots?

 

[brandon429]

yes to all that, *there are degrees of biosecurity people implement on their tanks

Jay's is the most strict/Humblefish's means are the most strict like you're saying above

a pre-tank to fallow out all additions, absolutely for the staunch adherents.

others do none of this prep (such as Paul B) and lose no fish to disease, but to get to hidden reasons why that may be ask yourself: are you near the ocean to just go out and add rocks and pods and various items to your reef as updates, including ocean water, while all along feeding your fish solely from the seafood section of a grocery store and no / or very little/ store-bought foods, in today's + pricing environment?

Those who skip disease preps rarely give the whole input at once, you have to trace out their posts to see some of the supports that may help them avoid these tedious preps. for average joe reef, yours/my reefs/ we need the preps.

this is why i dont care to keep marine fish, I just like coral-jacked containers

fish are a dang headache in my opinion lol

 

[Pkunk35]

So, totally agree with Brandon, my first thought was disease bc of the inverts being ok,
But man that’s one harsh wipeout without seeing any signs beforehand…esp when having purchased qt’d fish. Would never have told you myself that you were doing anything wrong at all having followed your steps. Very sorry to hear but I’m sure your next batch of fish will do amazing.

 

[kaijor]

yes to all that, *there are degrees of biosecurity people implement on their tanks

Jay's is the most strict/Humblefish's means are the most strict like you're saying above

a pre-tank to fallow out all additions, absolutely for the staunch adherents.

others do none of this prep (such as Paul B) and lose no fish to disease, but to get to hidden reasons why that may be ask yourself: are you near the ocean to just go out and add rocks and pods and various items to your reef as updates, including ocean water, while all along feeding your fish solely from the seafood section of a grocery store and no / or very little/ store-bought foods, in today's + pricing environment?

Those who skip disease preps rarely give the whole input at once, you have to trace out their posts to see some of the supports that may help them avoid these tedious preps. for average joe reef, yours/my reefs/ we need the preps.

this is why i dont care to keep marine fish, I just like coral-jacked containers

fish are a dang headache in my opinion lol

I'll start reading more about disease prevention to understand the basics a bit more. I would rather be strict then have another die off. I'll learn from this, thank you.

For me your values doesnt make sense.

Is the 0.1 ammonia total ammonia or free ammonia (by seachem badge). 0.1 total ammonia doesnt kill any fish.

If you killed your biofilter it should be much more than 0.1 total.

If you still have a working biofilter then your nitrates can't be zero with a previous bigger ammonia spike.

So values dont make sense to me.

Did you also make a big water change after cleaning the rocks?

How is your aeration, do you have a skimmer or airstone running?

Did you have anything on rocks that could be toxic upon death, any corals anything that you coulve killed with h2o2?

Any visible signs on the dead fish, like white layer or white dots?

I have a theory that their test at the LFS aren't necessarily accurate. Since they actually don't make any sense to me either. Last week, I tested my nitrates the level was almost 10 or so. I don't believe that nitrates would disappear within a week. I think that's impossible. I was using NOPOX to lower it a bit. I've now removed the dosing tube from the tank.

As for your question about the water change, when I placed the rocks back, I changed the water afterwards.

I have a skimmer and wavemaker. So, the tank should be getting enough aeration. I did have a question about this actually. Do wavemakers need to be higher towards the surface. Where I have it now it's kind of in the middle.

As for what could've been toxic upon death due to peroxide, I'm not entirely sure. I know that pods were living in the tank and liked to be on the rocks. I would see them trying to escape when I would clean the rocks. Other than that, I guess possibly snails could've died to the peroxide, but I don't think this would be toxic.

I do see a couple of white dots on one fish (maybe?), but the clown fish likes pretty pristine. I haven't found the other smaller clown fish yet, unfortunately.