Clownfish Mystery Diagnosis

[Cody Seer]

Hey all! I posted this on Humblefish, but there were not really any suggestions or ideas so I’m hoping to get some opinions here!

I have a pair of captive bred clowns that went through QT (arrive, H202 dip then MB dip), straight into 2.5 copper for 15 days (doing GC, Kana and Metro at appropriate intervals). Out into observation for 3 weeks, looked great.

4.5 months later, they’re in their own 10 gallon with some live rock and biomedia, it is connected it to another 10G with Clowns in it (shares a sump). Those clowns went through the same QT process above (different captive breeders though). So the clowns in question have only been with other captive bred fish in ‘new’ tanks.

The female who is acting differently will lay on her side and breathe very heavy - 140-150 breaths per minute. But then when I walk to the tank she swims up fine, accepts food, and seems generally the same. Her mate will go lay next to her but isn’t acting the same (not laying on his side and breathing not as elevated). She swims around about half of the day like nothing is wrong, but lays down the other half of the day. She has always had a slightly funny way of swimming (like her back end is a little heavier than her front).

I checked parameters the first day I noticed and as there was a little detectable ammonia, I did a water change and dosed a little prime (less than .25 ppm ammonia but still). I did a 30 min MB bath on the female then waited 3 hours, seeing her acting the same, I did a 5 min FW dip to check for flukes or anything else. Looked at samples of the FW dip and did not see anything under the scope other than normal excrement. No signs of anything abnormal in the dip and behaved well.

With no visible ailments (no scratching or flashing, and the fish looks great externally), I isolated the 10G, performed an 50% water change, and dosed GC & Kanaplex. The next day, behavior was the same, so I did an H202 bath just to see if there was any improvement. Normal behavior in the H202 bath, and nothing to note left behind in the dip.
The next night, 50% water change, metro and Kana. Have continued this process (50% water changes every 48 hours & dosing Metro & kana) for a week now.

I’m not seeing any difference in behavior (for better or worse), and none of the other clowns are acting any different. No mucus issues (I’ve seen brooklynella before and no signs like that).

I am thinking it’s internal, and as such, I’ve bound GC and Neomycin to their food (2 days of that feed now). I’m perplexed by the behavior. I know clowns can just act weird sometimes, but the elevated breathing is my concern.

Hoping someone has a suggestion or has seen something similar. I have a lot of fish and have not had any diseases slip through QT up to this point - so not sure these treatment methods will help.

 

[Jekyl]

Can you please post some white light pics and a 20 second video?

 

[Jekyl]

Also what is their diet? Eating no problem?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey all! I posted this on Humblefish, but there were not really any suggestions or ideas so I’m hoping to get some opinions here!

I have a pair of captive bred clowns that went through QT (arrive, H202 dip then MB dip), straight into 2.5 copper for 15 days (doing GC, Kana and Metro at appropriate intervals). Out into observation for 3 weeks, looked great.

4.5 months later, they’re in their own 10 gallon with some live rock and biomedia, it is connected it to another 10G with Clowns in it (shares a sump). Those clowns went through the same QT process above (different captive breeders though). So the clowns in question have only been with other captive bred fish in ‘new’ tanks.

The female who is acting differently will lay on her side and breathe very heavy - 140-150 breaths per minute. But then when I walk to the tank she swims up fine, accepts food, and seems generally the same. Her mate will go lay next to her but isn’t acting the same (not laying on his side and breathing not as elevated). She swims around about half of the day like nothing is wrong, but lays down the other half of the day. She has always had a slightly funny way of swimming (like her back end is a little heavier than her front).

I checked parameters the first day I noticed and as there was a little detectable ammonia, I did a water change and dosed a little prime (less than .25 ppm ammonia but still). I did a 30 min MB bath on the female then waited 3 hours, seeing her acting the same, I did a 5 min FW dip to check for flukes or anything else. Looked at samples of the FW dip and did not see anything under the scope other than normal excrement. No signs of anything abnormal in the dip and behaved well.

With no visible ailments (no scratching or flashing, and the fish looks great externally), I isolated the 10G, performed an 50% water change, and dosed GC & Kanaplex. The next day, behavior was the same, so I did an H202 bath just to see if there was any improvement. Normal behavior in the H202 bath, and nothing to note left behind in the dip.
The next night, 50% water change, metro and Kana. Have continued this process (50% water changes every 48 hours & dosing Metro & kana) for a week now.

I’m not seeing any difference in behavior (for better or worse), and none of the other clowns are acting any different. No mucus issues (I’ve seen brooklynella before and no signs like that).

I am thinking it’s internal, and as such, I’ve bound GC and Neomycin to their food (2 days of that feed now). I’m perplexed by the behavior. I know clowns can just act weird sometimes, but the elevated breathing is my concern.

Hoping someone has a suggestion or has seen something similar. I have a lot of fish and have not had any diseases slip through QT up to this point - so not sure these treatment methods will help.

Sounds like it may be intimidation or introduction issue, meaning you transferred fish over and wanted to acclimate them as if you just purchased them and she reacted differently which similar to osmotic shock, affected her in some way. The metro likely not necessary and the one that sticks out would be Metheleyne blue bath which should not be used in marine setting which may have triggered what you now see.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

+1 on needing to see some video of the affected fish, the tank, as well as the fish in with it that aren't showing symptoms.

What dose were you using for the peroxide dips and MB dips?

With the other fish not being affected, I'm wondering if this may be a congenital defect? If it were a disease like flukes or Brooklynella, other fish of the same type would eventually show symptoms. Captive raised clownfish often have defects of their gill structures that gives them chronic rapid breathing. Most other causes of rapid breathing (disease and water quality issues) will also cause a fish to stop eating. However, these defects do not show up overnight, they tend to develop slowly over time.

BTW: Don't bind GC with the food, it is composed of two medications, and they have different oral doses, so even if you measure out the drugs properly, you cannot get it right. Metronidazole is dosed at 1% by weight in the food and praziquantel is dosed at 50 mg per kg of fish body weight.

 

[Cody Seer]

Also what is their diet? Eating no problem?

They eat great. They prefer pellets but I introduced a new food before (mix of mysis, brine, calanaus, and bloodworms). I was feeding pellets for one meal and the other mix for 1-2 small feedings a day.
I’ll work on getting a video!

 

[Cody Seer]

Sounds like it may be intimidation or introduction issue, meaning you transferred fish over and wanted to acclimate them as if you just purchased them and she reacted differently which similar to osmotic shock, affected her in some way. The metro likely not necessary and the one that sticks out would be Metheleyne blue bath which should not be used in marine setting which may have triggered what you now see.

First of all, thanks for the quick replies all. This dialogue is just what I’m looking for!

I guess I’m not fully understanding the first part of your message, intimidation or introduction issue? The fish have been in the same tank with no meds or any dips for a couple months prior to the issue I’m currently seeing.

I used MB per the guidelines on Humblefish, but I’m curious why you’d recommend not using it for Marine fish as I use it 1x for a 30 min bath for every new fish (and it hasn’t seemed to cause a problem). If there’s any articles you’re specifically referencing, please tag them here! I’ll also look into it because this is new information to me!

 

[Cody Seer]

+1 on needing to see some video of the affected fish, the tank, as well as the fish in with it that aren't showing symptoms.

What dose were you using for the peroxide dips and MB dips?

With the other fish not being affected, I'm wondering if this may be a congenital defect? If it were a disease like flukes or Brooklynella, other fish of the same type would eventually show symptoms. Captive raised clownfish often have defects of their gill structures that gives them chronic rapid breathing. Most other causes of rapid breathing (disease and water quality issues) will also cause a fish to stop eating. However, these defects do not show up overnight, they tend to develop slowly over time.

BTW: Don't bind GC with the food, it is composed of two medications, and they have different oral doses, so even if you measure out the drugs properly, you cannot get it right. Metronidazole is dosed at 1% by weight in the food and praziquantel is dosed at 50 mg per kg of fish body weight.

Again, thanks for the response all, definitely appreciate the insights.

For the food binding - it’s more of shooting in the dark, which I understand has risks and likely won’t have an impact, but I’m really trying to identify the issue. I understand food binding is challenging to get right anyway, and I’ve read your post on medication binding to food & can definitely see why for most it wouldn’t be very effective.

For MB dips, I actually eyeball it, I use a few drops in 1/2 a gallon of their tank water for 30 min.
For peroxide, I use 10 ml (3% peroxide) for a 1/2 gallon for 30 min.
Both dips aerated the entire time using tank water for the clowns.

To your point on chronic fast breathing - this clown has always had elevated breathing and swam slightly funny - just not to this pace. So it’s possible that this is part of this issue (or the full issue), and that’s been one of my thoughts.

 

[Cody Seer]

I will have to get the 20 second video later, but here’s some I’ve captured over the past week. These are taken within minutes of each other (6:01 vs 6:05).

Edit: Let me know if these can’t be accessed and I can upload to YouTube later today.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Intimids

First of all, thanks for the quick replies all. This dialogue is just what I’m looking for!

I guess I’m not fully understanding the first part of your message, intimidation or introduction issue? The fish have been in the same tank with no meds or any dips for a couple months prior to the issue I’m currently seeing.

I used MB per the guidelines on Humblefish, but I’m curious why you’d recommend not using it for Marine fish as I use it 1x for a 30 min bath for every new fish (and it hasn’t seemed to cause a problem). If there’s any articles you’re specifically referencing, please tag them here! I’ll also look into it because this is new information to me!

as far as a fish posing stress on it
Many fish are on their best behavior Until you walk away from the tank

 

[MnFish1]

I can't see the video - and others are answering your questions. My only comment is that the protocol you used for QT does not follow the guidelines we use - and you used multiple medications, all of which have toxicities - I would wonder if this may be playing a role - but even if not - I would suggest that it might be to your benefit to change your QT procedures. For example, our protocol recommended here is Copper for 30 days, followed by 2 doses of Prazipro separated by 8 days, followed by an observation period. IF there is evidence of active infection then kanaplax or metroplex - or others can be used depending on the location. Hope this helps, and good luck with your fish!! PS. I cannot see the video

 

[Cody Seer]

Here’s the video uploaded to YouTube. I will get a 20 second video under white light shortly.
Clownfish Video 1

 

[Cody Seer]

Intimids

as far as a fish posing stress on it
Many fish are on their best behavior Until you walk away from the tank

I would agree with this - however, it does seem the breathing is faster & I notice the fish on its side now which I’d never seen before. I definitely agree that behavior changes when the fish see that I’m there.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I would agree with this - however, it does seem the breathing is faster & I notice the fish on its side now which I’d never seen before. I definitely agree that behavior changes when the fish see that I’m there.

Please post a clear video under white light intensity

 

[Cody Seer]

I can't see the video - and others are answering your questions. My only comment is that the protocol you used for QT does not follow the guidelines we use - and you used multiple medications, all of which have toxicities - I would wonder if this may be playing a role - but even if not - I would suggest that it might be to your benefit to change your QT procedures. For example, our protocol recommended here is Copper for 30 days, followed by 2 doses of Prazipro separated by 8 days, followed by an observation period. IF there is evidence of active infection then kanaplax or metroplex - or others can be used depending on the location. Hope this helps, and good luck with your fish!! PS. I cannot see the video

Thanks for your input!

I follow this QT above based on guidance from the Humblefish forum, but I have read the QT procedures here. I have had good results with about 20 or so fish that I’ve done the noted QT procedure with, but I’m always open to changing my methods to either A) provide a more thorough QT, or B) reduce lasting effects.

I guess my question around whether to prophylactically treat or not resides in whether fish can be carriers of something but show no symptoms, which I believe we’ve seen some evidence of. So I tend to treat for everything in a short period and then try to rebuild the fishes gut health over time.

Again, always willing to try different approaches and learn more!

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for your input!

I follow this QT above based on guidance from the Humblefish forum, but I have read the QT procedures here. I have had good results with about 20 or so fish that I’ve done the noted QT procedure with, but I’m always open to changing my methods to either A) provide a more thorough QT, or B) reduce lasting effects.

I guess my question around whether to prophylactically treat or not resides in whether fish can be carriers of something but show no symptoms, which I believe we’ve seen some evidence of. So I tend to treat for everything in a short period and then try to rebuild the fishes gut health over time.

Again, always willing to try different approaches and learn more!

Treating is a method of prevention. Disease is on us and not the fish and often I see fish in a tank several weeks and then a disease appears and all fish have to then receive treatment and tank a fallow period which could have been prevented from the onset

 

[Cody Seer]

Please post a clear video under white light intensity

Here’s the video (longer than 20 seconds). The fish won’t lay down while I’m visible.
Clownfish White Light Vid

Edit: video isn’t the greatest quality, and it’s challenging to see the gill movement. It’s elevated, but again my cause for concern was when the fish started to lay on its side during the daytime.

 

[Cody Seer]

Treating is a method of prevention. Disease is on us and not the fish and often I see fish in a tank several weeks and then a disease appears and all fish have to then receive treatment and tank a fallow period which could have been prevented from the onset

I’d agree, but I don’t feel like this situation is a ‘normal’ disease. Since it’s captive bred and did go through QT, I’m leaning more towards what Jay said regarding congenital defects.

I'm wondering if this may be a congenital defect? If it were a disease like flukes or Brooklynella, other fish of the same type would eventually show symptoms. Captive raised clownfish often have defects of their gill structures that gives them chronic rapid breathing.

The fish has always had faster than normal breathing, it just seems to be increasing. This clown has also always swam slightly funny compared to other clowns I’ve had.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Here’s the video (longer than 20 seconds). The fish won’t lay down while I’m visible.
Clownfish White Light Vid

A couple of things I see is a very intimidating female who is chasing the male and stressing it. I believe your filtration is a sponge unit and tank may be underfiltered and I would suggest to take a water sample to a store you trust and does not use API kits and see what readings they come up with and to compare with yours as the water seems hazy/cloudy.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for your input!

I follow this QT above based on guidance from the Humblefish forum, but I have read the QT procedures here. I have had good results with about 20 or so fish that I’ve done the noted QT procedure with, but I’m always open to changing my methods to either A) provide a more thorough QT, or B) reduce lasting effects.

I'm not aware of any 'studies' comparing directly the toxicity of the protocol you used - with multiple medications - to the one here. So it's difficult to say with much conviction. However, The more antibiotics the fish is needlessly exposed to, the more the likelihood for resistance to develop - both in your tank and your home. The best 'qt' is using the safest medications for the shortest period of time, and based on the most likely organisms that are likely to be seen. This is why I favor the protocol here (which I think is more throrough). If there is evidence of a bacterial infection or an internal parasite after the protocol, then it's prudent to treat for that with antibiotics.

I guess my question around whether to prophylactically treat or not resides in whether fish can be carriers of something but show no symptoms, which I believe we’ve seen some evidence of. So I tend to treat for everything in a short period and then try to rebuild the fishes gut health over time.

Again, always willing to try different approaches and learn more!

Fish can be carriers of something that causes no symptoms. However, so can every other animal. There are commensal organisms that can live peacefully on or inside humans, for example that can cause disease in certain circumstances (like staph or strep) or many others, but we do not treat so that we get rid of all of those bacteria.

I'm not saying that either regimen is necessarily 'bad' or 'better' - only the reason I prefer one over another.