climbing phosphate low nitrate

[Schulks]

Phosphate is at .3 but my nitrates are at 3. I have an IM EXT 50 + trigger 20 cube running a reefmat 250 and mini bubble king 160(rated 70g heavy bioload). It was also an all live rock build.

I guess the reefmat + my oversized skimmer are removing all the nitrate but not hitting the phosphate. I was feeding heavy proportions 3 times a day and I have lowered the proportions but still 3 times a day as I am trying to keep my flameangel happy.
There is a lot of bits floating around the tank so I don't want to reduce the reefmat. Hopefully it can clean those out at some point.... I'd also rather not turn off the skimmer because it raises my water level a lot when off and I like the ph boost it brings.

So.. My plan is to start running GFO and try to learn to run the skimmer a little drier.
I am running carbon in a small reactor (aqua ready fr-s). Should I try running gfo 3 weeks of a month and switch it to carbon the last week? or should I purchase another fr-s so I can run the gfo full time and pop in the other for carbon when I want? or possibly mix them together and run that full time no tumbling though?

Thanks

 

[Formulator]

No need for GFO, your phosphate is fine. In fact your ratio of phosphate to nitrate is almost perfect (NO3 = 10x PO4). I don’t understand why some folks chase such extremely low PO4. Unless your corals are losing their color “pop”, I would do nothing. Running GFO could cause more problems than good at your levels. It would likely just bottom out PO4 overnight and really stress your corals.

If you really want lower phosphate, try adding some nitrate. They tend to have an inverse relationship as the microbiome balance them out. I bet if you raised nitrate to 10, PO4 would come down to 0.1 or so.

 

[Schulks]

No need for GFO, your phosphate is fine. In fact your ratio of phosphate to nitrate is almost perfect (NO3 = 10x PO4). I don’t understand why some folks chase such extremely low PO4. Unless your corals are losing their color “pop”, I would do nothing. Running GFO could cause more problems than good at your levels. It would likely just bottom out PO4 overnight and really stress your corals.

If you really want lower phosphate, try adding some nitrate. They tend to have an inverse relationship as the microbiome balance them out. I bet if you raised nitrate to 10, PO4 would come down to 0.1 or so.

woops I was reading my phosphate number wrong. I thought at 3 nitrate I'd want 0.03 phosphate. Thanks lol

I guess I am on target and if anything I can feed a little more. That's awesome! I guess since I am feeding lower proportions I might try adding a 4th feeding to my schedule but continue to track ofc.

 

[Schulks]

Actually, I'm still a bit confused. I have 3 nitrate so .3 phosphate is at the current desired amount but if I had 10 nitrate 1 ppm phosphate would be ok?

I thought people also wanted to keep phosphate around 0.15. Is that true?

Edit: i guess I am just solid where I am. I'll just make sure neither gets past the 10:1 ratio or too high.

 

[Formulator]

Actually, I'm still a bit confused. I have 3 nitrate so .3 phosphate is at the current desired amount but if I had 10 nitrate 1 ppm phosphate would be ok?

I thought people also wanted to keep phosphate around 0.15. Is that true?

Chasing the perfect ratio isn’t really necessary. It was just an observation. A lot of people try to keep PO4 at or below 0.1 because it has been shown that lower levels can increase coral growth rates and some of the more sensitive SPS, like acros tend to color up better. But in my experience, most corals do just fine anywhere in the 0.1-0.5 ppm range. Higher than 0.5 will start to brown out some SPS and noticeably slow down growth, but it won’t hurt anything. Many older 5+ year old tanks have much higher (1 or even 2+ ppm) phosphate levels than you hear preached around here and have beautiful corals. LPS and softies actually tend to do better with a bit higher levels of both nitrate and phosphate.

The point is - you really don’t have much to be concerned about and GFO is powerful stuff that would be more risk than reward IMO. I wouldn’t consider that route unless you creep over 0.5 ppm or so.

 

[Pistondog]

Ratio does not matter.
You can mix gfo and gac together.
To increase nitrates, reduce reefmat.
examine foods for high po4, like pellets or Reefroids.

 

[Formulator]

You can mix gfo and gac together.

You can, but its not the most efficient way to use either of them. They do better on their own with different flow rates. Anyways, hopefully the OP takes my advice and doesn’t need to use any GFO…

 

[Outlaw Corals]

I found this to be the best product to lower phosphates. You could use this to get your phosphates down to where you would like them, and then start dosing Bacto Balance, that will keep your phosphate and nitrates where you want them

 

[Pistondog]

You can, but its not the most efficient way to use either of them. They do better on their own with different flow rates. Anyways, hopefully the OP takes my advice and doesn’t need to use any GFO…

I agree gfo not necessary.
Why different rates for gac and gfo?

 

[Formulator]

I found this to be the best product to lower phosphates. You could use this to get your phosphates down to where you would like them, and then start dosing Bacto Balance, that will keep your phosphate and nitrates where you want them

Politely, I adamantly disagree and really think this is bad advice. That product is Lanthanum Chloride and can be extremely dangerous to your fish if not used correctly. It is absolutely the last thing you need with only 0.3 ppm phosphate. Bacteria in a bottle is also completely unnecessary and its just a marketing ploy to get you buying a constant supply of their phosphate and nitrate solutions that you will need to dose constantly to keep from zeroing out.

 

[Formulator]

I agree gfo not necessary.
Why different rates for gac and gfo?

GFO tends to clump so best to keep it rolling in a fluidized bed to get the most out of it. With carbon its better to maximize the contact time with water so just run it at a trickle.

 

[Pistondog]

GFO tends to clump so best to keep it rolling in a fluidized bed to get the most out of it. With carbon its better to maximize the contact time with water so just run it at a trickle.

No clumping of gfo if mixed with gac, thats the concept.
So carbon trickle is the flow.

 

[Formulator]

No clumping of gfo if mixed with gac, thats the concept.
So carbon trickle is the flow.

Ah, interesting. I’d never heard that, but I suppose it makes sense. Still, the media will be consumed at different rates so when one is exhausted (probably GFO before GAC) you have to throw the other one away or continue running with only one of them actually working. But sure, it won’t hurt anything if you only have one reactor.

 

[Outlaw Corals]

Politely, I adamantly disagree and really think this is bad advice. That product is Lanthanum Chloride and can be extremely dangerous to your fish if not used correctly. It is absolutely the last thing you need with only 0.3 ppm phosphate. Bacteria in a bottle is also completely unnecessary and its just a marketing ploy to get you buying a constant supply of their phosphate and nitrate solutions that you will need to dose constantly to keep from zeroing out.

Lanthanum chloride is one of the ingredients of that product it’s not straight lanthanum chloride, big difference but yes it is very strong and you need to go slow with it, i dose it into my overflow and i have never lost anything, bacto balance does not raise or lower anything it just keep’s your nutrients where you want them when you get them to your liking, it also converts excess phosphates and nitrates and creates a biomass of food for your corals, it’s not the easiest thing to keep your nutrients in check and these products work very well, and I will continue to recommend them when situations like this come up, it’s just like everything else personal preference into each their own

 

[Formulator]

Lanthanum chloride is one of the ingredients of that product it’s not straight lanthanum chloride, big difference but yes it is very strong and you need to go slow with it, i dose it into my overflow and i have never lost anything, bacto balance does not raise or lower anything it just keep’s your nutrients where you want them when you get them to your liking, it also converts excess phosphates and nitrates and creates a biomass of food for your corals, it’s not the easiest thing to keep your nutrients in check and these products work very well, and I will continue to recommend them when situations like this come up, it’s just like everything else personal preference into each their own

I’ll give a pass on the bacto balance. Perhaps it works for some. Phosphate-E is just lanthanum chloride. Anything else they say is in there is just marketing BS. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, but if you just dump it into your system without researching how to do it properly, there is significant risk, especially for tangs which have been known to die on occasion. It really should be dosed into a 5 micron sock or into skimmer neck to ensure the precipitate is removed upon binding PO4.

 

[Outlaw Corals]

You are absolutely correct on that dosing method if it’s 100% lanthanum, personally I think that bottle is not purely lanthanum I believe it is watered down. I don’t think Brightwell would do such thing knowing how strong it is not expecting the average reefer to have much knowledge about it, idk at least that is what I would hope from them. They have always been a very good company.

 

[Formulator]

You are absolutely correct on that dosing method if it’s 100% lanthanum, personally I think that bottle is not purely lanthanum I believe it is watered down. I don’t think Brightwell would do such thing knowing how strong it is not expecting the average reefer to have much knowledge about it, idk at least that is what I would hope from them. They have always been a very good company.

It contains lanthanum chloride. Regardless of the concentration, it creates precipitate that harms some fish if not removed appropriately. There is nothing magic in the bottle that prevents this just because they have a fancy label. Go tell @Randy Holmes-Farley that Brightwell is a good company. I think he has a different perspective on some of their products…

Sorry I’m not trying to be combative, and it does work, but to call it anything other than what it is (lanthanum chloride in a fancy bottle marketed to reefers) is just silly.

 

[Outlaw Corals]

I have never lost one single fish from using it, i have always used Brightwell products with good success so I’ve always been happy with the company, I recently started using aqua forest and topic marin they have been really stepping it up lately with their product lines, those are my three go to companies when I am in need of something, and i have no idea who Randy Farley is I have yet to interact with him, I’m sure he’s a really good guy as most folk are in here, and I would be willing to bet money that it’s not just straight Lantham chloride in that bottle

 

[Formulator]

I have never lost one single fish from using it, i have always used Brightwell products with good success so I’ve always been happy with the company, I recently started using aqua forest and topic marin they have been really stepping it up lately with their product lines, those are my three go to companies when I am in need of something, and i have no idea who Randy Farley is I have yet to interact with him, I’m sure he’s a really good guy as most folk are in here, and I would be willing to bet money that it’s not just straight Lantham chloride in that bottle

I use some brightwell stuff too. They make some good products, but that doesn’t mean they don’t also sell some snake oil. Agree to disagree on the phosphate-E. I don’t think its any safer or meaningfully different than any other other LaCl. More likely you don’t have tangs or just lucky.

Randy is basically the reef chemistry “oracle” and has written countless reference articles on the subject. He is a household name for most reefers and I’m kind of stunned you’ve never heard of him LOL.

 

[REEFRIED!]

I agree that ratios are not worth chasing. Your phosphate is a bit high. If I were you I would not dose anything. I would not yet run any GFO. I would simply feed much less. Just cut your feeding way down for a day or two and retest po4. I guarantee it will drop.